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Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / March 2007Raising the bedtime bar.
My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still holds off till 9-10 for bed time. I get up at 4:45 for work, and 6 hours of sleep or less does not cut it. Any advice for encouraging going to bed? Talos > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Talos ---------------------- Get him tired, and then him fall asleep on you and sleep with you. Warm milk and carbs helps too. What we used to do is turn off lights off and turn down the TV till we could just barely hear it, and then get everybody in pajamas and bring pillows and blankets to the couch and have them crawl up on us and massage them. They go right out like a light, and after they start to snore deeply we'd carry them to bed (which was in our room when they were young, their "bedroom" was all playroom) and tuck them in, and if they woke up later we were right there and they passed right out again. In the early morning start making kitchen and breakfast noises and good smells like toast and bacon and butter and eggs frying and coffee. Then go wave it under their nose to get them awake a little earlier. Doesn't hurt to give them some coffee or tea either. Never force them or try to con them, they resent it and then you have other problems. Just work it like you'd have to to get a bunch of adults up or to bed on time, make it all voluntary, but with happy inducements. Steve >> My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to >> bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Get him tired, and then him fall asleep on you and sleep with you. > Warm milk and carbs helps too. Yeah, but they may want to have sex... So the kid can't sleep in the same bed while the parents are having sex. > What we used to do is turn off lights off and turn down the TV till > we could just barely hear it, and then get everybody in pajamas and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > them in, and if they woke up later we were right there and they > passed right out again. You must be indeed of Viagra. You can't have kids in the room when you have sex moron. If you were impotent and you and your wife just slept in the same bed than I could understand having kids sleep with parents. Maybe this guy wants to nail his wife and fix his kids sleeping problems. > In the early morning start making kitchen and breakfast noises and > good smells like toast and bacon and butter and eggs frying and > coffee. Then go wave it under their nose to get them awake a little > earlier. Doesn't hurt to give them some coffee or tea either. Sounds good. > >> My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > >> bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yeah, but they may want to have sex... So the kid can't sleep in the same > bed while the parents are having sex. --------------------- Why not? Ours did, and it never hurt them! > > What we used to do is turn off lights off and turn down the TV till > > we could just barely hear it, and then get everybody in pajamas and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You must be indeed of Viagra. ------------------------------- I've never needed it myself. > You can't have kids in the room when you have > sex moron. ----------------------------- Sure you can, in fact, since the world's population is actually on average EXTREMELY poor, more human families DO SO than DO NOT! What do you think humans did before the modern era, and still do today all over the place? > If you were impotent and you and your wife just slept in the > same bed than I could understand having kids sleep with parents. ---------------------------- You're just a fundie moron who's ashamed of sexuality. Many of us are QUITE different from you. Our kids saw us f.cking from their earliest age and they grew up advanced and with an adult bearing about human issues. They found it shocking that not all people were raised as they were, and couldn't see how others could ever learn to have sex properly just out of books! They at first didn't even believe us when we tried to inform them of how some of you freaks live! They believed we were just kidding them and that if people didn't see f.cking that they might never learn it by accident! > Maybe this > guy wants to nail his wife and fix his kids sleeping problems. ------------------------ Didn't stop us in the least. We used to f.ck on the couch on Saturday mornings, and one morning our son, with a peanut-butter sandwich in his hand, turned around and said: "We can't even hear the cartoons, can't you guys go f.ck somewhere else if you're going to be so noisy?" He was 4 and his sister was 2. Steve > > >> Talos > > > ---------------------- [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Pardon me for butting in but I have to disagree with you Steve Walz. I don't think it is appropriate to f.ck in front of small children. We have a guy in prison over here for the murder of 5 members of his family. His name is David Bain. I don't know if he did it but apparantly his whole family is dysfunctional. His parents used to f.ck in front of him and his siblings when they lived in Papua New Guinea and they were missionarys. Now that is f.cked. Being a missionery and doing the missionery in front of toddlers. Sick! Scorp > Pardon me for butting in but I have to disagree with you Steve Walz. > I don't think it is appropriate to f.ck in front of small children. --------------------- Yes, I know your fixation, you superstitious sickies imagine it isn't. Unfortunately, nothing in your view makes any sense or is provable. And you have no actual way to support your view, except a made-up antisexual mysticism that isn't in any way demonstrable as truth. Species have been having sex in front of their offspring for a VERY very long time now, and there are VERY SUBSTANTIAL counter-examples in human cultures that demonstrate unequivocably that it isn't and could not BE damaging. Nor can anyone even think of a good reason WHY it COULD be!! This is the most instructive feature of your superstitious mythology that is only found in western culture. > We have a guy in prison over here for the murder of 5 members of his > family. His name is David Bain. I don't know if he did it but > apparantly his whole family is dysfunctional. -------------- Meaning they did things others didn't like. The fact remains that some ways in which people may deviate are damaging, while others are improvements in human behavior, and you may find both in any situation and you will not be able to show a causal relation by such confused multivariate causations. To do that you would have to clearly separate these variables to eliminate spurious causes. > His parents used to > f.ck in front of him and his siblings when they lived in Papua New > Guinea and they were missionarys. ---------------- The Papuan people's do that, always have, and they're not crazy. They're extremely peaceful people who play their erotic version of cricket and then celebrate with orgies. But being Xtian Fundie missionaries in the FIRST place is proof that his parents were f.cking nuts, and that whatever they were doing, they did it WRONG. Xtian Fundies do that a lot. And anything can be done WRONG, but so can it be done RIGHT! Lots of broken people do all sorts of things that deviate from the norm of their upbringing, but not all the things they do are wrong or cause harm. They ate in front of their children too, and you're not claiming THAT is damaging, which means you're being suspiciously selective of what you wish to declare as causational!! > Now that is f.cked. Being a > missionery and doing the missionery in front of toddlers. Sick! > Scorp ------------------------ No, that's only your confused delusion. Our kids are now in their mid-thirties and are very calm intelligent confident computer professionals. More than half the people on earth do the same thing, and they're not nuts or crazy or "dysfunctional". Steve > --------------------- > Yes, I know your fixation, you superstitious sickies imagine it isn't. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > WHY it COULD be!! This is the most instructive feature of your > superstitious mythology that is only found in western culture. Well in this instance I choose to be ethnocentric. It's far too an important subject not to be. > > -------------- > Meaning they did things others didn't like. Ok I get where you're going with this. You have to understand that your views are very radical in our conservative western culture. You are expecting me to tolerate your far-out ideas which bamboozle and befuddle me, yet I don't see you extending the hand of tolerance. > ---------------- > But being Xtian Fundie missionaries in the FIRST place is proof > that his parents were f.cking nuts, and that whatever they were > doing, they did it WRONG. Xtian Fundies do that a lot. And anything > can be done WRONG, but so can it be done RIGHT! Yes I must admit I'm very anti-christian and that does tend to cloud my view. > Lots of broken people do all sorts of things that deviate from the > norm of their upbringing, but not all the things they do are wrong > or cause harm. They ate in front of their children too, and you're > not claiming THAT is damaging, which means you're being suspiciously > selective of what you wish to declare as causational!! Well I have zero tolerance for the behaviour of f.cking in front of small children. The two words f.ck and children can never be juxtaposed as far as I'm concerned. Maybe women are just more emotional about children's well-being. Oh sorry I forgot there was another party involved when you were getting your rocks off! > ------------------------ > No, that's only your confused delusion. Our kids are now in their > mid-thirties and are very calm intelligent confident computer > professionals. Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! Scorp >Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > >Scorp ROFL Please, don't feed the trolls. :) Talos > >Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Talos > >Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Talos Troll do what trolls do. Scorpios do whata Scorpios do - bite. Go figure. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Damn, shoulda married me a scorpio. LOL yes we're a sexy bunch! > yes we're a sexy bunch! Yes....I got me one of those. lol > > yes we're a sexy bunch! > > Yes....I got me one of those. lol Tell me what it's like to live with one... >> > yes we're a sexy bunch! >> >> Yes....I got me one of those. lol > > Tell me what it's like to live with one... Well I married her so it couldn't have been that bad. LOL > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I got a Virgo. I don't think I wanna go there with this one. ROFL > >>yes we're a sexy bunch! > > >Yes....I got me one of those. lol > > I got a Virgo. I don't think I wanna go there with this one. ROFL And are you Taurus or Cappy? > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Aries. > >>>>yes we're a sexy bunch! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Aries and Virgo...ok then Scorpio would have been no good for you anyway. Too much fireworx > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > How is Virgo supposed to be for me out of curiosity? > How is Virgo supposed to be for me out of curiosity?- Hide quoted text - Hi Talos did you get my reply email? I seem to have had some difficulties sending. Megan > > Yes, I know your fixation, you superstitious sickies imagine it isn't. > > Unfortunately, nothing in your view makes any sense or is provable. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Well in this instance I choose to be ethnocentric. It's far too an > important subject not to be. ------------------------ But which "ethno" are you picking. You see, without a multi-cultural analysis based on reason, you can't even select which culture to believe in! Sure, you imagine you'd just stay with whatever you got from your parents and their contemporaries in this culture, but that is no different than sticking your head in the sand and pretending that constitutes a "view"! > > Meaning they did things others didn't like. > > Ok I get where you're going with this. You have to understand that > your views are very radical in our conservative western culture. You > are expecting me to tolerate your far-out ideas which bamboozle and > befuddle me, yet I don't see you extending the hand of tolerance. --------------------------- For me to tolerate wrongness would be foolish. Alao calling my cross-cultural analysis that employs reason, "radical" or "far-out" with respect to nothing more than the arbitrary culture that was handed you by nit-wits is the height of the meaning of intolerance. Given the facts, namely that humans do quite different things in this regard, and without apparent harm, leads the reasonable analyzer to the conclusion that we can adopt improved customs as we wish as long as we provide the support systems that the originating cultures use along with them, or else better ones that we contrive with full awareness of the nature of the adopted customs. Culture and custom is in no way magic, remember, and it USUALLY is changed on no more than whims and fancies in terms of fad and societal change in customs, while reason and planning do far better. > > But being Xtian Fundie missionaries in the FIRST place is proof > > that his parents were f.cking nuts, and that whatever they were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes I must admit I'm very anti-christian and that does tend to cloud > my view. ---------------------------------- That shouldn't cloud anything. Being anti-Xtian is a quite reasonable position given that Xtianity indulges in nothing more than unsupported rumor to purportedly get its adherents to "hebbin". > > Lots of broken people do all sorts of things that deviate from the > > norm of their upbringing, but not all the things they do are wrong [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > small children. The two words f.ck and children can never be > juxtaposed as far as I'm concerned. ------------------- This only means that you are neurotic, and that you have fixated on fears and guilt and shame that were taught you by early abuse. You were made terrified of those things for no more reason than lack of exposure to them and being abused and dishonored if you removed strategic items of clothing or said certain magic words until you were even frightened if you did that alone in private! > Maybe women are just more > emotional about children's well-being. Oh sorry I forgot there was > another party involved when you were getting your rocks off! ----------------------------------- Yes you did. That would be a callous absurd western prejudice taught to women when they are taught to fear men and sexuality. Don't assume that men are more sexually driven than women are, that would be a severe mistake. > > No, that's only your confused delusion. Our kids are now in their > > mid-thirties and are very calm intelligent confident computer > > professionals. > > Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > Scorp -------------------------------- So now nerd is synonymous with perversion. Well, remember, jocks don't think of sex nearly as much as nerds do, which is why nerds are better lovers! (Revenge of the Nerds) Steve > ------------------------ > But which "ethno" are you picking. You see, without a multi-cultural [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is no different than sticking your head in the sand and pretending > that constitutes a "view"! I'm judging from my own cultural point-of-view - conservative Western. > This only means that you are neurotic, and that you have fixated on > fears and guilt and shame that were taught you by early abuse. You > were made terrified of those things for no more reason than lack > of exposure to them and being abused and dishonored if you removed > strategic items of clothing or said certain magic words until you > were even frightened if you did that alone in private! Yep neurotic is my middle name. Are you an armchair psychologist now? I'm not an average garden variety case but thanx for having a go. You're just quoting straight from a text-book. So you've proved you're tertiary educated...you haven't convinced me to suddenly grab my partner and start snorting and sweating right here in the living room while my son eats his nutra-grain! > > Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > > Scorp [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > don't think of sex nearly as much as nerds do, which is why nerds > are better lovers! (Revenge of the Nerds) Why oh why did I leave my accountant husband? Oh yes that's right he was boring and obsessed with porn which is boring anyway... Thanx for the musing... > > ------------------------ > > But which "ethno" are you picking. You see, without a multi-cultural [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > is no different than sticking your head in the sand and pretending > > that constitutes a "view"! > I'm judging from my own cultural point-of-view - conservative Western. ----------------------- That's like saying: "I'm judging from the point of view of a bigot." It's meaningless to treat any view as somehow valid in a void, in a vacuum without any externally referent cross-cultural analysis. > > This only means that you are neurotic, and that you have fixated on > > fears and guilt and shame that were taught you by early abuse. You [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > having a go. You're just quoting straight from a text-book. So > you've proved you're tertiary educated... ----------------------- Why in the world would you wish to be proud of either such bigotry, or of such an anti-intelligent view? Your critique of me seems to be wholly that I'm smart and educated! It sounds like the slack-jawed mouthings of a total loser who wishes to believe, along with several of his brainless friends he's haranguing to, that "those kollige-boys are smart, but they's wrong because of all that there book-learnin'!!" > you haven't convinced me to > suddenly grab my partner and start snorting and sweating right here in > the living room while my son eats his nutra-grain! ------------------------- I propose nothing as forced and phony as you describe, but what would be the harm if you did? I don't see any, besides maybe making your kids note that you're really nervous and uncomfortable about sex even while trying to perform it for them like a dinner theater. We were never uncomfortable about sex in front of them because we did it every day from day one of their life, and they thought it was totally and completely normal! When we explained to them, as they got older, that not everyone had sex in front of their kids, they were totally puzzled, and at first they thought we were joking and leading them on for fun, which we we often did to teach them critical thinking! > > > Computer professionals?!? Well there you go you've said it all! > > > Scorp [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Why oh why did I leave my accountant husband? Oh yes that's right he > was boring and obsessed with porn which is boring anyway... ----------------------------- If sexuality and watching sexuality bores you, then you're not doing it right. Either that or you're horribly embarrassed and permanently shamed far beyond the ability of mere reason to correct and return you to the normality of natural drives and feelings. You are permanently damaged. Steve > > > ------------------------ > That's like saying: "I'm judging from the point of view of a bigot." Yes that is exactly it. I have zero tolerance for christians and people who have sex in front of small children. > ----------------------- > Why in the world would you wish to be proud of either such bigotry, > or of such an anti-intelligent view? First you're calling me a bigot now you're calling me proud? I don't say I'm proud of those views. All I know is that is the way I feel about it. Pride doesn't come into it. Your critique of me seems to be > wholly that I'm smart and educated! It sounds like the slack-jawed > mouthings of a total loser who wishes to believe, along with several > of his brainless friends he's haranguing to, that "those kollige-boys > are smart, but they's wrong because of all that there book-learnin'!!" Hah? When did I suddenly change genders? I do think you've got the smarts and you think a lot about a lot of things. I disagree with you about the sex in front of small kids. I am allowed aren't I? > I propose nothing as forced and phony as you describe, but what would > be the harm if you did? Because he's never seen it before... To you I may not be sexually liberal. Where is the rule book that says I have to set my standards by yours? I'm quite comfortable with my own sexuality. I enjoy wonderful, audible orgasms. Some of which have woken my son up in the next room. I don't feel ashamed or embarrased. It's not a bad thing for a boy to hear his mother express herself. I walk around naked and I don't move to cover myself up if my son can see. Hell he's 7 and we sometimes still shower together if I need to scrub the ingraned dirt off his feet. It's not a problem. He's normal, I'm normal and according to my standards, you're not. According to your standards I am abnormal. I'm never going to change your mind and you will never change mine. The End. Scorp > ----------------------------- > > > > ------------------------ > > That's like saying: "I'm judging from the point of view of a bigot." > > Yes that is exactly it. I have zero tolerance for christians and > people who have sex in front of small children. -------------------------- You're merely fixated and deluded. You are acting exactly like a sexually paranoid Xtian Fundie, only without the Liturgy! That is what this society does when it brainwashes people, it shames them with religious dogma, without religious arguments, in fact without ANY arguments, AT ALL. In fact the Fundies have discovered they can shame you out of behaviors and ideas that frighten them WITHOUT giving you any of their illogical "reasons" for it! The things you are fixated upon as notions have NOTHING BEHIND THEM! > > Why in the world would you wish to be proud of either such bigotry, > > or of such an anti-intelligent view? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about it. > Pride doesn't come into it. ------------------------------- So you're pleading that you can't help yourself? That's just plain phony. Only lying weasels and cowardly women are duplicitous in order to avoid criticisms becoming personalized! Sounds like a highschool girl who has been confused into agreeing with her clique to improve her social acceptance! > > Your critique of me seems to be > > wholly that I'm smart and educated! It sounds like the slack-jawed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Hah? When did I suddenly change genders? ----------------- You didn't. You're just LIKE him. Simile, not metaphor. > I do think you've got the smarts and you think a lot about a lot of > things. I disagree with you about the sex in front of small kids. I > am allowed aren't I? --------------------------------- No. Not if your position is not reasonably defensible. If we permitted people to get away with that we'd have to tolerate religious terrorists and bigots. What you do to children with your antisexuality and shame and guilt amounts to child abuse! > > I propose nothing as forced and phony as you describe, but what would > > be the harm if you did? > > Because he's never seen it before... -------------------------- Is that supposed to be a reasonable argument? Sounds like you would ban children from seeing all the things they haven't seen yet. That sort of precludes education and everything they need to grow as people. To argue that reasonably you would have to argue that seeing sex in some magical mysterious way HARMS them, and you won't be able to do so reasonably!! Nobody I have ever talked with has ever managed to. Nor can *I* even think how to go about it, and I can outthink everyone I've ever met! > To you I may not be sexually liberal. Where is the rule book that > says I have to set my standards by yours? ------------------- That's a phony argument. Anyone can declare that any criticism of them amounts to depriving them of their autonomy, yet clearly it doesn't. > I'm quite comfortable with > my own sexuality. I enjoy wonderful, audible orgasms. Some of which > have woken my son up in the next room. I don't feel ashamed or > embarrased. It's not a bad thing for a boy to hear his mother express > herself. ---------------- Agreed. I'm glad you've progressed THAT far at least! But then why not SEE said activity? What is this magical mysterious reason that sight is precluded while hearing is not? You won't be able to insist that yours is a reasonable argument. > I walk around naked and I don't move to cover myself up if > my son can see. Hell he's 7 and we sometimes still shower together if > I need to scrub the ingraned dirt off his feet. It's not a problem. --------------------------- That's a start! But JUST a start. If only you could behave that way about ALL of life, you'd have rendered yourself harmless to him. > He's normal, I'm normal and according to my standards, you're not. > According to your standards I am abnormal. ---------------------------- The argument is about our two different standards, so that assertion is meaningless. I can obviously say the same of you to no meaningful end. > I'm never going to > change your mind and you will never change mine. The End. > Scorp ------------------------------- No it's not the end. You can run away if you like but you have no way of being certain whether you will change in the future. And my experience is that people change later after they hear the surprising things I say, whereas they would never admit at the time that I'm affecting them. Now my ideas are in your head, and you'll never, ever be able to get them out again. However slowly, they will change you over time. Steve > No it's not the end. You can run away if you like but you have no > way of being certain whether you will change in the future. And my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ever be able to get them out again. However slowly, they will change > you over time. This is the end of discussing this particular subject with you. We don't agree and that's it. I want to start another conversation with you about another subject because I'm interested in what you have to say. Going away 2morrow. Won't be on-line for 1 week. Do not adjust your set. I will get back to you. Ciao, Megan >No it's not the end. You can run away if you like but you have no >way of being certain whether you will change in the future. And my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Steve > No one is worthless. If nothing else they can serve as a bad example. > >No it's not the end. You can run away if you like but you have no > >way of being certain whether you will change in the future. And my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > No one is worthless. If nothing else they can serve as a bad example. ---------------------------- No one here said anyone was worthless. It is a simple fact that we can't change who we are because we ARE who we are, but that others can change us by what they say to us, because their words introduce us to new information which is the ONLY thing with the potential to change our minds, and that we cannot avoid that effect once we have heard their truth. Steve > ---------------------------- > No one here said anyone was worthless. Steve you must realise that your inexorable attitude can make some feel worthless. > It is a simple fact that we can't change who we are because we ARE > who we are, but that others can change us by what they say to us, > because their words introduce us to new information which is the > ONLY thing with the potential to change our minds, and that we > cannot avoid that effect once we have heard their truth. ...and have you ever been effected by the power of suggestion Steeeeeve???? > > ---------------------------- > > No one here said anyone was worthless. > > Steve you must realise that your inexorable attitude can make some > feel worthless. ---------------- I can't help what YOU THINK I make YOU feel. > > It is a simple fact that we can't change who we are because we ARE > > who we are, but that others can change us by what they say to us, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ...and have you ever been effected by the power of suggestion > Steeeeeve???? ------------------ How did you think I got this way anyway? ;-> Steve > > > ---------------------------- > > > No one here said anyone was worthless. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ---------------- > I can't help what YOU THINK I make YOU feel. Ah free will and all that...do you accept that we can all think what we like? Do you accept that people aren't idiots because they *choose* not to take your ideas on board? > > ...and have you ever been effected by the power of suggestion > > Steeeeeve???? > > ------------------ > How did you think I got this way anyway? ;-> Oooohh a loaded question! Where would I start by answering that? You're the psychologist - you tell me! > > > > ---------------------------- > > > > No one here said anyone was worthless. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ah free will and all that...do you accept that we can all think what > we like? -------------------------- We think and like what we think and like. It arises due to brain chemistry, we ARE what we think, we cannot CHOOSE what we think. > Do you accept that people aren't idiots because they > *choose* not to take your ideas on board? ----------------------------- I'm a Determinist. They're idiots, and can't help it. I can help them change, that's what I am destined to do. > > > ...and have you ever been effected by the power of suggestion > > > Steeeeeve???? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Oooohh a loaded question! Where would I start by answering that? > You're the psychologist - you tell me! ----------------------------- The story is long, basically a Siddartha-like tale, near as I can guess. I was never really abused by my parents, I escaped it by purest of accidents, and as a consequence I felt free to think what is most likely true, rather than having to learn to believe only what gets me loved. then I went out and saw how bad off the rest of you were, and I began trying to tell you why. Steve > > > > > ---------------------------- > > > > > No one here said anyone was worthless. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm a Determinist. They're idiots, and can't help it. > I can help them change, that's what I am destined to do. Bah, another determinist materialist! It is very un-free of you to think that I am an idiot because I am a dualist. > ----------------------------- > The story is long, basically a Siddartha-like tale, near as I can > guess. Thank you for sharing. Siddartha-like? Sorry not with you. I was never really abused by my parents, I escaped it by > purest of accidents, and as a consequence I felt free to think > what is most likely true, rather than having to learn to believe > only what gets me loved. then I went out and saw how bad off the > rest of you were, and I began trying to tell you why. So life steps on some people like a bug...then they have to learn to live with it instead of trying to fight it and live without it. You cannot change anyone. You can only change yourself, thereby possibly infuencing others to change or not. You think a lot about abuse for someone who claims they weren't abused themselves. And this path you've taken to tell us "how bad off the rest of us are", where are you coming from? Are you coming from a place of genuine concern for humankind or is it a method of social control? Even Skinner believes that individual choice is far more important than forms of conditioning of which people are not aware, and he's a determinist. Why is it that you can't make room for other's opinions? > > > > > > No one here said anyone was worthless. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Bah, another determinist materialist! It is very un-free of you to > think that I am an idiot because I am a dualist. ------------------------- Why? It makes you look really stupid! Unfree? Nobody can even BE "unfree". There is no such thing as FreeWill, because whatever we think, and therefore what we do, is CAUSED, caused by the sum total of our previous experiences in order and our initial chemistry. Nor is this specifically materialist. Though I'ma physicist, most physicists hold that the phenomenon of existence is unified, and non-concrete, it is perceptual, not material. A belief in concrete "atoms" is not required, atoms are only models, nothing more. But we do know that what we think is caused because it does not change for little or no reason, the reason can always be located and stated, and further, we know that we cannot change our mind by an effort of will, unless we are destined to do so, and that THEN, such a change is ALSO equally INVOLUNTARY to us! We cannot, by any effort of will/whim, change the tiniest thing that we believe! We can lie about it, if that is our destiny, but then we are ALSO unable to change that!! > > The story is long, basically a Siddartha-like tale, near as I can > > guess. > > Thank you for sharing. Siddartha-like? Sorry not with you. ------------------------ Read the book by Herman Hesse, famous plot-line. > > I was never really abused by my parents, I escaped it by > > purest of accidents, and as a consequence I felt free to think [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So life steps on some people like a bug...then they have to learn to > live with it instead of trying to fight it and live without it. ---------------------------- They either learn or do not, they either want to, or they do not, or something external changes them, they cannot change themselves. They may change from within, by delayed cognitive effect, but then they cannot even prevent it. > You cannot change anyone. --------------------------- Others are the ONLY things you can change!! They and you cannot change themselves/yourself, because whatever you are, you ARE yourself! There is no content within a person that can change them, lest it be by delayed cognnition and then ALSO it is involuntary!! > You can only change yourself, -------------------------- Right now, change the tiniest thing you truly believe by nothing more than an effort of will! You cannot do it! Likewise larger things in you are also unchangable, by logical extension. A reasonless effort of will is the same as a whim, and there is no reason for anything you truly believe to be changed by a whim. > thereby possibly infuencing others to change or not. ------------------------- You're a very poor thinker, you merely blather what you think must SOUND good, without critical thinking. > You think a lot about abuse for > someone who claims they weren't abused themselves. -------------------------- So did Siddartha Gautama, later known as the Buddha. He was raised in a noble household, pampered, and he had never before seen or experienced evil and decay. > And this path > you've taken to tell us "how bad off the rest of us are", where are > you coming from? --------------------------- Nonsense, i tell you what I see. If you were not bad off I could not tell you so. Your effort here is to disingenuously dispute your state by alleging the bearer of the tidings is somehow corrupt. That would be your easy way out, which is why it doesn't work. > Are you coming from a place of genuine concern for > humankind or is it a method of social control? --------------------- Both. Like all humans, I desire to see others do better, for them and for me, and I seek to change them even if against their will to make it so. > Even Skinner believes > that individual choice is far more important than forms of > conditioning of which people are not aware, and he's a determinist. ------------------------------------ He is using a slightly different dictionary. To him your "choice" is a process over which you have no personal conscious control. I would never use words that way, because I think it confuses people like you. And conditioning is an imposed program from outside to alter behavior without regard for the change in mental content that is required to cause the behavior change. > Why is it that you can't make room for other's opinions? ------------------------------ I can, unless they are wrong. Any wrongness in our common shared universe/life, will finally come to affect ME, so I have the right to affect it to alter it. Example: Xtian bigotry and antisexuality results in oppression of others, including me. Steve Help me out here Shakespeare: So my superstitions make me prey to your ruthless intellectual exploitation? Tell me but truly - but then speak the truth - hath thee never encountered a supernatual being? Prithee tell me, my lord! > Help me out here Shakespeare: > So my superstitions make me prey to your ruthless intellectual > exploitation? -------------------- No, only tomy relentless correction. > Tell me but truly - but then speak the truth - hath > thee never encountered a supernatual being? Prithee tell me, my lord! ---------------------- Nope. And neither has anyone else. How do I know this? Simple: If you like theistic explanations, try this: If there were God, He would know that no rumor of his existence SHOULD be believed second-hand, lest the wrong God by acknowledged. He would have to concede that we shouldn't be expected to believe what may be only lies and rumors, at best, and vicious untruths about Him at worst. Therefore, he would tell all of us, or none of us. Having not heard from Him, I conclude that either there isn't any, or it isn't interested, and in either case, those who pretend to speak with Him are just lying to acquire power and charisma. Now if He's more devious with us than that, wanting it to be some magical guessing game, where you can only win accidentally, then he doesn't know his own creation very well, now, do He? Or else He's not worth worshipping, because He can't be trusted. Now I don't bother with "Gawd", because Gawd doesn't bother with us. I'm dispassionately agnostic about such a stupid backward notion as Gawd, which resembles nothing so much as a medieval king and court, obviously our creation. But that is a way to describe the situation for a theist. Steve Why you no listen? The god concept is bogus. If people tell me they're a christian, a wall immediately goes up for me. What I talk of is freaky things that must have happened to you that you say is just co-incidence. How many co-incidences do you need in order to admit that there's something going on that niether you nor I understand? I'm f.cked if I'm going to believe it's god working his miracles. > Why you no listen? The god concept is bogus. --------------------- The way it is currently used is bogus. The fact remains that we don't know how we got here, but we feel like we were "dropped off", and that we'll be "picked up" someday, and that we have no control of either how we got here, or what happens when "here" is over, and that this was and will be done by something far more powerful than ourselves. It doesn't matter what you call it, God or Existence or "I Am That I Am" (I am Being Itself"). Nor can we prove that there isn't something beyond what we call death here that we will experience. Since these total possibilities are endless, and the limits of the conceivable also seem infinite, every possible occurence is not merely possible, but within this Infinity it CAN be said to DEFINITELY HAPPEN! It is possible that we have an Infinite number of outcomes for every instant! This is the Many Worlds Model of Quantum Mechanics. Determinism merely says that any one outcome is unary, that is, must be taken one at a time. And once in that instant, it was always the one that we were "destined" to experience, though not necessarily planned in advance. > If people tell me > they're a christian, a wall immediately goes up for me. --------------------- Oh, me too. But that isn't in any way akin to what I'm saying. > What I talk of is freaky things that must have happened to you that > you say is just co-incidence. How many co-incidences do you need in > order to admit that > there's something going on that niether you nor I understand? I'm > f.cked if I'm going to believe it's god working his miracles. ------------------------- One of the features to intelligence is that we don't fathom its depth or grasp all the ways it works. If it seems like something is talking to us, it's a cinch that in ALL cases, it is most likely that we are merely hearing another layer or facet of our own being. Good "psychics" can cold-read others so well as to convince them that something "supernatural" is going on, when it isn't! The Amazing Randi for example, is able to duplicate John Edwards' "psychic powers" by simple strategies and procedures that are quite obvious when described. Randi is actually a scientist exploring these ignorant misperceptions and debunking such clowns. Steve > > Why you no listen? The god concept is bogus. > > --------------------- Fear-based crap is what christianity is. I worry that I am so anti. What do you think it says about me? >> This is the Many Worlds Model of Quantum Mechanics. Determinism merely > says that any one outcome is unary, that is, must be taken one at a > time. And once in that instant, it was always the one that we were > "destined" to experience, though not necessarily planned in advance. Oh mother! > --------------------- > ------------------------- > One of the features to intelligence is that we don't fathom its > depth or grasp all the ways it works. If it seems like something > is talking to us, it's a cinch that in ALL cases, it is most likely > that we are merely hearing another layer or facet of our own being. Isn't this a bit ethereal for you Steve? Like, that is something I would say :) > Good "psychics" can cold-read others so well as to convince them that Have you been to a psychic? If so what was your experience? Don't give me your analysis just tell me what was said. > something "supernatural" is going on, when it isn't! The Amazing Randi > for example, is able to duplicate John Edwards' "psychic powers" by > simple strategies and procedures that are quite obvious when described. Example...please! > > > Why you no listen? The god concept is bogus. > > > > --------------------- > Fear-based crap is what christianity is. I worry that I am so anti. > What do you think it says about me? ------------------------- Doesn't bother me, Xtianity deserves every bit of it, but you will get tired of maintaining the level of hate, and then there's even more to learn about how dangerous it is. > >> This is the Many Worlds Model of Quantum Mechanics. Determinism merely > > says that any one outcome is unary, that is, must be taken one at a > > time. And once in that instant, it was always the one that we were > > "destined" to experience, though not necessarily planned in advance. > > Oh mother! -------------------------- Is that good or bad? > > One of the features to intelligence is that we don't fathom its > > depth or grasp all the ways it works. If it seems like something [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Isn't this a bit ethereal for you Steve? Like, that is something I > would say :) ----------------- It would take a while to determine that accurately. > > Good "psychics" can cold-read others so well as to convince them that > > Have you been to a psychic? If so what was your experience? Don't > give me your analysis just tell me what was said. ---------------------- I've tried it, disappointing. I made up a scenario and answered as-if so that they would take those cues, despite being totally erroneous, and he took it and ran with it right where I led him. > > something "supernatural" is going on, when it isn't! The Amazing Randi > > for example, is able to duplicate John Edwards' "psychic powers" by > > simple strategies and procedures that are quite obvious when described. > > Example...please! ----------------------- Read up on Randi, you'll see it all. Steve > > Oh mother! > > -------------------------- > Is that good or bad? Rolls eyes towards ceiling... > I've tried it, disappointing. I made up a scenario and answered as-if > so that they would take those cues, despite being totally erroneous, > and he took it and ran with it right where I led him. So you learned that lieing is reciprocal. So what? You put up a barrier by lieing which stopped her/him getting a link with you or being able to connect. You haven't proven anything. I wonder what the outcome would have been if you had let them in on just a smidgen of truth? Bad faith. Clicks tounge, shakes head.... > Read up on Randi, you'll see it all. Will do. > > > Oh mother! > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So you learned that lieing is reciprocal. So what? -------------------- No, I learned he wasn't a psychic, or he'd have known better. > You put up a > barrier by lieing which stopped her/him getting a link with you or > being able to connect. ---------------------- You're pretending that he's a real psychic, but that I still have to tell him everything in some manner. > You haven't proven anything. I wonder what > the outcome would have been if you had let them in on just a smidgen > of truth? Bad faith. Clicks tounge, shakes head.... --------------------------- Nonsense, what is a psychic if not a mind-reader? If he doesn't do that in some form, then he's only pretending. Steve > > Read up on Randi, you'll see it all. > > Will do. Oh brother...I'm rolling my eyes again... Come on over to the astrology group. Have you met Rick Ellis and Bob Officer? You guys should become friends...they would welcome anybody who enjoys having a go at me. See you there. > Oh brother...I'm rolling my eyes again... > Come on over to the astrology group. Have you met Rick Ellis and Bob > Officer? You guys should become friends...they would welcome anybody > who enjoys having a go at me. See you there. -------------------------- Never heard of 'em. Steve Another idiot for the spam file. But from the advice he gave I may have to take steve back out. > {snip} In one age, called the Second Age by some, (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) someone claiming to be 127.0.0.1 wrote in message <Uxbzh.105$CP.67@newsfe06.lga>: >Yeah, but they may want to have sex... So the kid can't sleep in the same >bed while the parents are having sex. Is that what scarred you so terribly, idiot child? > In one age, called the Second Age by some, > (an Age yet to come, an Age long past) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is that what scarred you so terribly, idiot child? ------------------- That doesn't "scar" anyone, in the vastness of the human third world that's the normal form of sex education! Steve > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Talos I have same problems. I either put my boy in our bed and this is a novelty for him he thinks he's very important. He falls asleep soon after then when I go to bed I just transfer him to his own. He is 7 so very heavy but worth it to get him in bed early. Other times if he gets up I let him stay for 5 minutes then he goes back with no fuss. Again he feels like he's getting a good deal. And sometimes if I'm really tired myself I just say I am going to bed too and the whole house will be dark and he has no choice. Best of luck. Being a boy does he need Dad to get growly with him? Dad's seem to be more effective when it comes to boundary setting. Megan > > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > > bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Megan ----------------- More effective at damaging children, and wives, and marriages, and lives generally. There is no boundary violation here, he is expecting and hoping for what children ARE SUPPOSED TO GET! It's CRUCIAL for a child to feel "special". That is how he comes to regard himself with respect and not self-deprecation and ill-self-worth! Children have genuine fears of abandonment, they EVOLVED to be that way for a REASON, to keep the attention of their adult parents because they are quite literally endangered when ALONE! When you pretend you should just be able to fob him off somewhere else for awhile or get him to go leave you alone just because you want to rest, all YOU'RE doing is manifesting YOUR immaturity and neediness that YOU never got met by YOUR parents!! Grow the f.ck up! Steve > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Talos It sounds like your 5 yr old has got in a late routine. Is he aware of time, can he tell the time? My five year old is very time aware and is like this, he checks to see if it is 8.00pm. I take him upstairs about 6.30 and let him soak in the bath for a while then read stories while he sits in bed, (this makes him sleepy). If he comes down, which he sometimes does(not as much as he used to) I just whisper "back to bed" and take him back without interacting too much but keeping my manner soft, then kiss him goodnight and tell him not to get out of bed again. He used to have night tantrums when he was younger because he didn't want to go to sleep on his own. He is much happier about it now. good luck Aries > > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > > bed earlier, but even if we start his bedtime routine early, he still [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Aries --------------------- He's given up on you because you're dishonoring and disrespecting him, you'll hear MUCH more about this from him LATER. Steve > buttery...@btinternet.com wrote: > > > > My 5 yr old fights going to bed every night. I would love to get him to > --------------------- > He's given up on you because you're dishonoring and disrespecting > him, you'll hear MUCH more about this from him LATER. - So what do you recommend? That he book season tickets in their bedroom to catch the late show??? > > buttery...@btinternet.com wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So what do you recommend? That he book season tickets in their > bedroom to catch the late show??? --------------------------- Your fixation on sexual performance with an audience is clouding your mind. Kids don't even know what you're doing or care much till later. And until the day they notice one day that it involves genitals they don't realize it is much different than wrestling around for fun. And if you've been doing it right along and have never shown shame about your genitals, then your kids see your genitals the same way they see your arms or legs or fingers, with no special shame or guilt or attention attached. If something isn't conspicuously absent, then kids don't focus on it unduly. But doing things like forcing them to clothe their genitals, and doing the same with yours, these sorts of conspicuous absences that go undiscussed are extremely hurtful and shaming to children, making them feel about their genitals as they might be taught to feel about a horrible guilty family secret like non-consensual sexual abusive. Seeing you having fun together makes them feel safe and protected and comforts them that their parents are well-bonded and that you'll be together for them indefinitely. To our experience, sex that they have become used to they usually ignore or sleep through, while noting it as a pleasant life fact for later in the back of their mind. The mistake lots of adults in western culture make is imagining that seeing sex will make them overly interested in sex, when actually, kids, before they acquire their own sexual drives at age 8 or 9 or so, have no interest in it, as it doesn't make their genitals react in a specifically sexual way. Steve |
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