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Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / July 2004Help with violent child
I have a two year old son (will be 3 in October 2004) who is not responding to our disciplinary tactics. We have a 6 year old daughter who was born with a desire to please. She has never required anything more than a stern look and then she's good for days. My son is very aggressive and obstinate. To some degree I believe this is related to the fact that he is a boy and some of it because he is the second child. Regardless of the reasons, we are at our wits end. We don't take such a claim lightly. I have degrees in Psychology and Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees in Psychology and Counseling, so we've tried most of the standard recommendations. We try to first set a good example and provide a loving home with plenty of encouragement and positive reinforcement for desired behaviors. Despite that, he insists on hitting, biting, and otherwise hurting others. Time-outs are not effective. Some quiet time in his room is only effective in getting him to apologize and stating that he understands hurting others is wrong. Within 5 minutes, he's hitting someone again. We've tried redirecting his behavior to a new activity, but this is sometimes harder than it sounds My wife and I are disgusted with ourselves since we have resorted to tactics that we swore we would never engage. For example, I have spanked him a few times which is something our first child has never required. Twice my wife has bitten him back to show him how it feels when he bites her. Neither of us think this is a good way to deal with his behavior, but we feel we are running out of options. Television keeps his attention, thus keeping him out of trouble, but there are so many ill effects to watching too much television that we don't want to resort to that. Any suggestions are appreciated. Sincerely, One who is beginning to understand why some mothers kill their children. :-) > I have degrees in Psychology and > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > One who is beginning to understand why some mothers kill their > children. :-) Uh huh. Surely you jest, but if not, Steve will give you a mouthful. In the meantime, a stern look +we've tried most of the standard > recommendations. +Time-outs +Some quiet time in his > room +I have > spanked him a few times +Twice my wife has bitten him back +Television keeps his attention, thus keeping him out of trouble (all the above descriptions add up to below) ______________________________________ My son is very > aggressive and obstinate. (I'm not surprised; why are you? Aggression feeds upon agression.) I have degrees in Psychology and > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees > in Psychology and Counseling, Degrees don't matter here; despite your having these degrees, your child is out of control, because you are out of control with your disciplinary responses. You definitely need alterative methods than the ones you are using. You can start with paying more attention to him instead of putting him in front of the TV, and quit spanking, biting,etc. him. Try treating him with gentleness and loving guidance instead of aggression. Where do you think your young son gets the aggression, if not learned from the people who are inflicting it upon him? Susan > I have a two year old son (will be 3 in October 2004) who is not > responding to our disciplinary tactics. We have a 6 year old daughter > who was born with a desire to please. She has never required anything > more than and then she's good for days. To some degree I believe this is related to > the fact that he is a boy and some of it because he is the second > child. Regardless of the reasons, we are at our wits end. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > behaviors. Despite that, he insists on hitting, biting, and otherwise > hurting others. are not effective. is only effective in getting him to apologize and stating that he > understands hurting others is wrong. Within 5 minutes, he's hitting > someone again. We've tried redirecting his behavior to a new > activity, but this is sometimes harder than it sounds > > My wife and I are disgusted with ourselves since we have resorted to > tactics that we swore we would never engage. For example, which is something our first child has never > required. to show him how it feels > when he bites her. Neither of us think this is a good way to deal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > One who is beginning to understand why some mothers kill their > children. :-) > Surely you jest, but if not, Steve will give you a mouthful. > In the meantime, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > aggressive and obstinate. > (I'm not surprised; why are you? Aggression feeds upon agression.) I'm afraid that usenet group posting don't allow complete disclosure of all events and some of my comments have been miscontrued. The first year is hard to count since a child that young hardly understands discipline, but for the first two years of his life we have been exceptionally consistent. More consistent than any other parent-team that we know. We work well together and do not allow the kids to "play" us against each other. As far as corporal punishment goes, we never laid a hand on my older child or my younger until just recently when my wife's patience with the younger began to reach her limits. That said even the "agression" from us that you reference was not done out of anger. It was done without showing emotion which is not always an easy thing to achieve. We know how important it is to take a deep breath and work cognitively and not out of reaction. Although I work during the day, when I am home, I take time to play with my children as a group and then later on an individual basis. Having only 2 kids allows for this. With my son, I usually end up playing Hotwheels, an Old MacDonald farm game, or reading a book to him. This does not necessarily keep him from headbutting, kicking, or hitting me in the middle of it. Throwing the Hotwheels or other objects is pretty common, also. I consistently responde with a verbal reprimand such as "Adam, you may not throw your toys. Someone may get hurt. If you do it again, you will have to sit in timeout." I do not get angry or aggressive with him. He will generally then pick up another car and throw it although he will usually do it a little less enthusiastically as if he's trying to figure out just where I draw the line between "throwing" and "dropping". Then I tell him that I see he has chosen a timeout. I tell him to go sit in the corner for a minute until he's ready to listen. If he runs or does not budge, I tell him, "Adam you may walk to the timeout corner yourself or Daddy will carry you to the timeout corner. You pick. If you don't pick, Daddy gets to pick." After a minute or so he's usually saying he's sorry. I walk over to him and kneel down at his level. I ask him why he was in timeout and if he understands why he can not throw his toys. He explains that he threw a toy and it could hurt somebody. I then give him a big hug tell him I love him and resume playing whatever game he chooses. Within a few minutes, the cycle repeats itself until bedtime. Then I get an hour or so to spend with my daughter. This is how every evening goes. In short, timeouts are not doing the trick and being calm and loving is not enough. Something else must be added to our discipline. > I have degrees in Psychology and > > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > think your young son gets the aggression, if not learned from the people who > are inflicting it upon him? With the exception of the two or three previously mentioned transgressions, we do not exhibit violence in our home. I am very against it and my wife even more so. We are in the process of reading a few books on challenging kids. Some offer some very good insight. I believe the one that is helping us the most right now is titled, The Challenging Child: Understanding, Raising, and Enjoying the Five "Difficult" Types of Children. Our son definitely fits the description of the aggresive child. > Susan I appreciate some of your comments Susan. I suspect that you mean well. It appears from some of the other responses, that other people on this forum either do not have children or simply contribute to further their personal agendas. I was truly seeking assistance, but pretty much just got flamed by Steve which I don'd understand since one would think that this would be a good place to vent frustrations, gather thoughts, get suggestions, and formulate a new plan-of-attack. Pardon the "violent" expression. My favorite response is the one by Steve who must either not have children this age or has forgotten what they are like. My son is nearly 3 (in October), is completely potty trained and talks in sentences with 10 or more words sometimes yet Steve finds it hard to believe that my son can verbalize an apology. I find this especially humorous since my son is not as verbal as his sister was at this same age. Not only can my son verbalize an apology, but he can tell you 6 hours later why he was not allowed to go play with a friend (usually because he was hitting). We don't "push" our children academically or athletically, we were just blessed with bright children. As far as my degrees are concerned, I think your comment about degrees being inconsequential is relatively accurate. My degrees were B.A.'s and not specific enough to children other than the required courses regarding Child Development. My wife's degrees are much more pertinent, but Steve is incorrect that those of us who have some training, don't need help. His response has proven one of his points, however. His reponse proves that indeed those of us who take this seriously and have an education should probably not choose the usenet to find help. Perhaps a moderated group would be best next time. My signature line about moms killing kids was indeed a joke, but not entirely without some truth. It seems there is nothing that can fully prepare a person for parenthood. Although my wife and I loathe the thought that ANYTHING would ever happen to our children, it does not mean that we can not understand how some parents "snap" under the pressure. It's far too easy for others to lump such people into some sort of "crackpot" category which is neither helpful nor accurate. Nonetheless, I did not mean to offend anyone with that signature, only to help me find humor in my frustrations. I do thank you for your time, Susan. > > My son is very > > > aggressive and obstinate. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > first year is hard to count since a child that young hardly > understands discipline, ------------------- Try 18 years. > but for the first two years of his life we > have been exceptionally consistent. More consistent than any other > parent-team that we know. We work well together and do not allow the > kids to "play" us against each other. ------------------- This means that you're both paranoids who believe that without "solidarity" your two year old will triumph over you! Pitiful. > As far as corporal punishment > goes, we never laid a hand on my older child or my younger until just > recently when my wife's patience with the younger began to reach her > limits. --------------------- She should know her limits and not overstep them!! That she has means she isn't fit to even HAVE children, which requires ADULT patience and compassion! > That said even the "agression" from us that you reference was > not done out of anger. ----------------------- Irrelevant, wrong is wrong, deny any motive you chose to deny, it's irrelevant anyway! The immature insecure act of coercion is the Evil! > It was done without showing emotion which is > not always an easy thing to achieve. -------------------- I'll say, for anyone with a HEART!! That entire motivation is the sickest thing I've ever heard! Why would you EVER imagine that NOT having your God-given emotions that SHOULD have restrained you and given you some gumption could ever be a "good thing (TM)"!!!!????????? > We know how important it is to > take a deep breath and work cognitively and not out of reaction. ------------------------ But you misunderstand what that means! It means to allow your compassion time to form instead of immature insecurely irrational reactive behaviors on your part! > Although I work during the day, when I am home, I take time to play > with my children as a group and then later on an individual basis. > Having only 2 kids allows for this. With my son, I usually end up > playing Hotwheels, an Old MacDonald farm game, or reading a book to > him. This does not necessarily keep him from headbutting, kicking, or > hitting me in the middle of it. ------------------------- Any child who hits and bites hates you. You need to question what it was that you did that made him hate you. If you fail you must realize that you are regarding something you did as right, which was instead and in fact a dire WRONG, and that your stubboren opinions are standing in the way of you grasping the causes of normal human behavior!! NO child hits/hates loving parents except by accident. If he has motive to hit you, it is your fault, and you need to put yourself in his place and determine why he would hate you if you were not genuinely "hate-able"!!! If you can't agree with your child, then you will never be friends and you should stick to the company of people you won't be able to try to control. > Throwing the Hotwheels or other > objects is pretty common, also. I consistently responde with a verbal > reprimand such as "Adam, you may not throw your toys. Someone may get > hurt. If you do it again, you will have to sit in timeout." ---------------------- That is aggressive controlling. It is EXACTLY AS hurting and hating to him as his behaviors seem to you, that IS EXACTLY why he does it! If you were treated that way you would want to hit and throw things at the person attempting it too, you see, we are NOT at ALL different as children than we are as adults! If a race of large powerful aliens came down and tried to make adult humans "pick up their toys" or such, or desist from throwing missles at them, they would be unsuccessful until they made us frightened out of our minds, and also emotionally damaged by PTSD. > I do not get angry or aggressive with him. =----------------------- No one cares if you are angry!!!!! All we care about is your response in adminstering coercion, which insults any human receiving it and WILL EVERY TIME result in them acting out hate toward you!!!! Why oh why do parents magically imagine that there is some magical law that magically makes it "right" to coerce, humiliate, frighten and control another person MERELY because of their relationship to you!!?? I have news for you, there isn't one, it's a mistaken social convention in this sick immature western society, and they aren't born with it, they are born feeling just like you would if you were manhandled by larger aliens and were humilated, dishonored, coerced, threatened, and generally controlled! You would be livid, you would want to poison their water till they were dead, dead, dead, and you would do so if you could!! You would kill them in their sleep and burn their f.cking house down!! > He will generally then pick up > another car and throw it although he will usually do it a little less > enthusiastically as if he's trying to figure out just where I draw the > line between "throwing" and "dropping". ------------------------ He's not testing you, he's testing his own resolve to resist you! Why do you make him do that with you, don't you realize that it is solidifying into a wall between you that will persist into his adulthood, when he not so secretly despises you? > Then I tell him that I see he has chosen a timeout. -------------------------- He has "CHOSEN" NO SUCH THING, what you're attempting here is nothing less than mind control, as used by captors on hostage/victims! It generates so much hate in the recipient from that dishonor of YOU assuming to define what and how HE thinks, that it produces a very nearly insurmoutable barrier between you. He will NEVER really love you or care about you if you do that, and also he will never learn to really fully care about anyone else, a part of him will always be about what is in it for him alone, and will reserve to himself his only true love and care!! In other words, you are destroying his ability to love! > I tell him to go sit in the corner for a minute > until he's ready to listen. If he runs or does not budge, I tell him, > "Adam you may walk to the timeout corner yourself or Daddy will carry > you to the timeout corner. You pick. If you don't pick, Daddy gets > to pick." -------------------- This is another extreme dishonor, the pretense of a false choice. It is another reprehensible form of attempted mind-control that only results in deep-seated unspeakable hatred that will secretly glory in your every disappointment, and finally even in your death!! In doing this you are again destroying his ability to love anyone, you are effectivly destroying his life before he has a chance to have one. Time-outs are just another form of abuse, like beatings, spanking, and threats of bodily harm, the abusive element is the coercion and dishonor of his person, not the physical damage. Kids hurt accidentally don't suffer emotionally for it. > After a minute or so he's usually saying he's sorry. ---------------------- Making somone capitulate that way should be reserved for criminals and prisoners of war who will not comply, it damages the person's will and their self-esteem in an unalterable way, one that should NOT be used on children!!! They will never now be able to feel they are genuine, they have been forced out of their own control and have been made to imitate rather than feel, they are now acting their entire life, not living it. > I walk over to him and kneel down at his level. -------------------------- Do you really? Why didn't you talk to him sooner? Why didn't you ask him if he hated you and why? Why didn't you honor him and his own desires as if he were a real person, one that YOU have to get along with by modifying YOUR behavior, which is that which makes him a person, not a thing??? > I ask him why he was in > timeout and if he understands why he can not throw his toys. He [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and being calm and loving is not enough. Something else must be added > to our discipline. --------------------------------------- You need to straighten yourself out, and leave this child the f.ck alone until you do! The reason it happens over and over at his age is that his cycle of awareness is all surface, his hatred of you has not been assauged, he still hates you, and as soon as his terror of you fades even slightly his hatred of you reasserts itself. It will continue to do so, trying to find a way he can be real and use his mind to assert himself in the world until his desire wins a place for him in his own life. A place where he is honored and his wishes for himself respected. If that can't be anywhere near you because you're this stupid, then he will always gravitate toward things you dislike, just to dishonor you in return for your misbehaviors toward him. When one is raised in your kind of abuse, one's entire motivation and hopes and dreams grow around dishonoring you and your abuse!! > > I have degrees in Psychology and > > > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "Difficult" Types of Children. Our son definitely fits the > description of the aggresive child. -------------------------- There is NO "challenging child", there are only challenging adults. You are pretending that he is the identified patient in the family, when the ones who need therapy are looking at you whenever you look in the mirror!! > I appreciate some of your comments Susan. I suspect that you mean > well. It appears from some of the other responses, that other people > on this forum either do not have children or simply contribute to > further their personal agendas. ------------------------- Or else you're wrong and can't admit that. This is the most common situation. Why would anyone need help with something they COULD understand??? Person walks into a room with blindfold over his eyes and says: "Turn on the light". Everyone agrees, except the guy without a blindfold, he says: "It IS on!" > I was truly seeking assistance, but > pretty much just got flamed by Steve which I don'd understand since [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My favorite response is the one by Steve who must either not have > children this age or has forgotten what they are like. ------------------------------ Ask your child to forgive you, we're adults here. I have two grown children in their late 20's and early 30's. I haven't forgotten, but ours WEREN'T "that way" PRECISELY BECAUSE of the way we treated them! My most treasured possession is a ceramic plaque my son made me which says, "Thank you for the way that you treat me!" > My son is > nearly 3 (in October), is completely potty trained and talks in > sentences with 10 or more words sometimes yet Steve finds it hard to > believe that my son can verbalize an apology. --------------------------- Mine read his first book at three and a half. If your child is amazing there is all the more reason to treat them like another equal person, rather than your chattel or serf. > I find this especially > humorous since my son is not as verbal as his sister was at this same > age. Not only can my son verbalize an apology, but he can tell you 6 > hours later why he was not allowed to go play with a friend (usually > because he was hitting). We don't "push" our children academically or > athletically, we were just blessed with bright children. ------------------------------- Then all the more reason you should desist from damaging their self-esteem and their self-image with your mind-control garbage. > As far as my degrees are concerned, I think your comment about degrees > being inconsequential is relatively accurate. My degrees were B.A.'s [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > seriously and have an education should probably not choose the usenet > to find help. Perhaps a moderated group would be best next time. ---------------------------------- Your approach was simply such a classic on this group that it was impossible to tell you from what we call a "troll", a post meant to ignite old disagreements by mining previous threads of that sort from Google and then pushing all the hot-buttons. > My signature line about moms killing kids was indeed a joke, but not > entirely without some truth. It seems there is nothing that can fully [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I do thank you for your time, Susan. -------------------------------- You will find that your children are as kindly to you as you are TO them, as honest to you as you are toward them, as understanding as you are TO them, etc. Any theory as to "how to control children" is the very reason that someone thinks they need such a theory. Control of others produces hatred only, never anything good. If even once you try to control them, that will destroy your friendship and you'll have to rebuild it all over again. If you treat children like you have to treat your friends to even have any friends, then your children will be your friends. Then again, if you don't like even your friends, best not have kids! You guys strike me as "too full of books"! Steve snipping out certain portions for length > With my son, I usually end up > playing Hotwheels, an Old MacDonald farm game, or reading a book to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reprimand such as "Adam, you may not throw your toys. Someone may get > hurt. If you do it again, you will have to sit in timeout." First of all, you need to word your responses differently. Always give positive direction. Tell him "cars drive on the track" or "please drive your cars". Keep your directives short and simple, and always praise positive actions. Even if he's only driving for a minute or two, tell him "I like the way your cars are on the track". Something to consider as well is whose choice these activities were. Perhaps your son does not want to play hotwheels or Old McDonald. Let him choose the activity. Some of Greenspan's work and readings could be of benefit. I do not > get angry or aggressive with him. He will generally then pick up > another car and throw it although he will usually do it a little less [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you to the timeout corner. You pick. If you don't pick, Daddy gets > to pick." So you're teaching him that power and might make someone right. Nice plan there Dad. If he becomes aggressive during an activity, don't choose that activity. Perhaps this is a child who needs action. Rather than forcing him to sit and read, buy a mini trampline and bounce, or take a walk, or go outdoors and throw a ball. > > I have degrees in Psychology and > > > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees > > > in Psychology and Counseling, Big deal. I also have degrees in psychology and counseling. When it comes to your own kids they don't matter in the least. The emotions come to the surface and its incredibly hard to utilize what you know. > snipping out certain portions for length > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > positive actions. Even if he's only driving for a minute or two, tell him > "I like the way your cars are on the track". I understand your point about positive direction although I don't agree with your examples. Teaching my son that the cars must go on the track doesn't allow him enough creative opportunities. He can drive them anywhere he likes including up and down my arm or leg as he sometimes does. > Something to consider as well is whose choice these activities were. > Perhaps your son does not want to play hotwheels or Old McDonald. Let him > choose the activity. Some of Greenspan's work and readings could be of > benefit. He ALWAYS chooses the activity. I sometimes ask him if he wants to play cars since I know he enjoys it, but I do not force him to play anything. As long as it's safe, I'm generally game. Even better if we can include my other child, but sometimes he just wants one-on-one time with me and I understand that. > > until he's ready to listen. If he runs or does not budge, I tell him, > > "Adam you may walk to the timeout corner yourself or Daddy will carry [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So you're teaching him that power and might make someone right. Nice plan > there Dad. If he becomes aggressive during an activity, don't choose that No. I'm teaching him that he can make choices. Choices come with consequenses. This comes straight from the "Love and Logic" series of parenting guides which my wife often teaches. You can read more on it here: http://www.loveandlogic.com/ It's a bit tougher with a two year old. With older kids a good example is, "if you will put your clothes in the hamper, I will wash them." If the child refuses to do so, they must either learn to wash their own clothes or wear dirty clothes to school. This is a natural consequence. With a two year old, they aren't fully capable of understanding those consequences, so it's not as cut and dry, but we try hard. > activity. Perhaps this is a child who needs action. Rather than forcing > him to sit and read, buy a mini trampline and bounce, or take a walk, or go > outdoors and throw a ball. Definitely! I agree he does indeed need action. We live in an area where playing outdoors is difficult, but we do go out and kick the ball some. I have him enrolled in a gymnastics class which he seems to love... almost too much... he can't stand to leave it when it's over. We plan to put him in a local soccer league this fall, but it will take some persuasion since he isn't old enough to qualify. I'm a martial artist and have several kicking bags and other pads that he can hit or kick if he feels the need. I think it's sometimes difficult for him to understand that it's okay to kick the bag but not okay to kick some other things and/or people. Because of that, I generally only practice my martial arts after he is asleep. I have NEVER forced him to sit and read with me. Such an act would be a lesson in futility for me, nor would I want to discourage him from liking books. We are anxious to see if soccer helps him relieve some of that stored energy. > > > I have degrees in Psychology and > > > > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to your own kids they don't matter in the least. The emotions come to the > surface and its incredibly hard to utilize what you know. Agreed. I just threw it in so people would understand where I'm coming from. I actually don't use my Psych degree much anymore. I'm now a computer programmer working on my masters in information technology. The Psych degree just helped to give me lots of great conversation starters not to mention it's how I met my wonderful wife. > > snipping out certain portions for length > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > drive them anywhere he likes including up and down my arm or leg as he > sometimes does. Than a simple "cars are for driving". Whatever you need to give him positive direction. I'm not just pulling this out of the air. I understand the difficulties and differences that occur when a 2 year old is involved. I taught preschool for 10 years, 5 of that with special needs kids. giving a positive direction is very important. At this age the "not" sometimes is beyond understanding, and what is heard is "throw". Give a direction that indicates the action you with your child to engage in. > > > snipping out certain portions for length > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > beyond understanding, and what is heard is "throw". Give a direction that > indicates the action you with your child to engage in. Point taken and agreed upon. > Surely you jest, but if not, Steve will give you a mouthful. > In the meantime, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > aggressive and obstinate. > (I'm not surprised; why are you? Aggression feeds upon agression.) I'm afraid that usenet group posting don't allow complete disclosure of all events and some of my comments have been miscontrued. The first year is hard to count since a child that young hardly understands discipline, but for the first two years of his life we have been exceptionally consistent. More consistent than any other parent-team that we know. We work well together and do not allow the kids to "play" us against each other. As far as corporal punishment goes, we never laid a hand on my older child or my younger until just recently when my wife's patience with the younger began to reach her limits. That said even the "agression" from us that you reference was not done out of anger. It was done without showing emotion which is not always an easy thing to achieve. We know how important it is to take a deep breath and work cognitively and not out of reaction. Although I work during the day, when I am home, I take time to play with my children as a group and then later on an individual basis. Having only 2 kids allows for this. With my son, I usually end up playing Hotwheels, an Old MacDonald farm game, or reading a book to him. This does not necessarily keep him from headbutting, kicking, or hitting me in the middle of it. Throwing the Hotwheels or other objects is pretty common, also. I consistently responde with a verbal reprimand such as "Adam, you may not throw your toys. Someone may get hurt. If you do it again, you will have to sit in timeout." I do not get angry or aggressive with him. He will generally then pick up another car and throw it although he will usually do it a little less enthusiastically as if he's trying to figure out just where I draw the line between "throwing" and "dropping". Then I tell him that I see he has chosen a timeout. I tell him to go sit in the corner for a minute until he's ready to listen. If he runs or does not budge, I tell him, "Adam you may walk to the timeout corner yourself or Daddy will carry you to the timeout corner. You pick. If you don't pick, Daddy gets to pick." After a minute or so he's usually saying he's sorry. I walk over to him and kneel down at his level. I ask him why he was in timeout and if he understands why he can not throw his toys. He explains that he threw a toy and it could hurt somebody. I then give him a big hug tell him I love him and resume playing whatever game he chooses. Within a few minutes, the cycle repeats itself until bedtime. Then I get an hour or so to spend with my daughter. This is how every evening goes. In short, timeouts are not doing the trick and being calm and loving is not enough. Something else must be added to our discipline. > I have degrees in Psychology and > > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > think your young son gets the aggression, if not learned from the people who > are inflicting it upon him? With the exception of the two or three previously mentioned transgressions, we do not exhibit violence in our home. I am very against it and my wife even more so. We are in the process of reading a few books on challenging kids. Some offer some very good insight. I believe the one that is helping us the most right now is titled, The Challenging Child: Understanding, Raising, and Enjoying the Five "Difficult" Types of Children. Our son definitely fits the description of the aggresive child. > Susan I appreciate some of your comments Susan. I suspect that you mean well. It appears from some of the other responses, that other people on this forum either do not have children or simply contribute to further their personal agendas. I was truly seeking assistance, but pretty much just got flamed by Steve which I don'd understand since one would think that this would be a good place to vent frustrations, gather thoughts, get suggestions, and formulate a new plan-of-attack. Pardon the "violent" expression. My favorite response is the one by Steve who must either not have children this age or has forgotten what they are like. My son is nearly 3 (in October), is completely potty trained and talks in sentences with 10 or more words sometimes yet Steve finds it hard to believe that my son can verbalize an apology. I find this especially humorous since my son is not as verbal as his sister was at this same age. Not only can my son verbalize an apology, but he can tell you 6 hours later why he was not allowed to go play with a friend (usually because he was hitting). We don't "push" our children academically or athletically, we were just blessed with bright children. As far as my degrees are concerned, I think your comment about degrees being inconsequential is relatively accurate. My degrees were B.A.'s and not specific enough to children other than the required courses regarding Child Development. My wife's degrees are much more pertinent, but Steve is incorrect that those of us who have some training, don't need help. His response has proven one of his points, however. His reponse proves that indeed those of us who take this seriously and have an education should probably not choose the usenet to find help. Perhaps a moderated group would be best next time. My signature line about moms killing kids was indeed a joke, but not entirely without some truth. It seems there is nothing that can fully prepare a person for parenthood. Although my wife and I loathe the thought that ANYTHING would ever happen to our children, it does not mean that we can not understand how some parents "snap" under the pressure. It's far too easy for others to lump such people into some sort of "crackpot" category which is neither helpful nor accurate. Nonetheless, I did not mean to offend anyone with that signature, only to help me find humor in my frustrations. I do thank you for your time, Susan. > > Surely you jest, but if not, Steve will give you a mouthful. > > In the meantime, [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] > > I do thank you for your time, Susan. Time outs are not particularly effective with LOTS of kids, anything over two minutes is WAY too long for a two year old, and it sounds like absolutely the wrong solution to throwing hot wheels. A better solution would be to say, "I see you need to throw things. When you throw hotwheels, you might hurt something or someone, so we'll put them up and get out the nerf balls and take them outside so you can throw." At the very least, hotwheels ARE an object that ought not be thrown, and there should BE no second chance: I'd put them up and out of reach the FIRST time they get thrown, every time. (IOW, don't put the CHILD in a time out -- put the toys with which he is risking injury in a time out.) Clearly, time outs aren't working with your son. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. So you have to do something else, and it makes more sense to me to try to figure out what need of his is not being met. Maybe he just needs LOTS more physically agressive play: jumping and climbing and throwing. Your description doesn't sound like he's doing it out of anger or to try to hurt someone -- he just needs something he isn't getting. Figuring out what it is and trying to provide it is MUCH more likely to be successful than continuing to turn everything into a power struggle between parent and child. If, on the other hand, he IS trying to hurt someone, and doing it frequently, your and your wife's expertise notwithstanding, you might need to spend time with a professional to understand the roots of his anger. As far as spanking without emotion -- frankly, that gives me the willies! I'd much rather see a parent obviously angry and at the end of their tether spank a child, than the cold blooded, calm inflicting of pain that you describe! And many of us understand the humor; I remember days suggesting to my partner that a kid shaped hole in the wall might be an interesting interior design addition to our home . . . As far as Steve goes, ignore the overblown rhetoric, and listen to what he says beneath that. Fundamentally, he is talking about a profound respect for the child -- something I see in far too few adults.  SignatureChildren won't care how much you know until they know how much you care > Time outs are not particularly effective with LOTS of kids, anything > over two minutes is WAY too long for a two year old, and it sounds like [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > time they get thrown, every time. (IOW, don't put the CHILD in a time > out -- put the toys with which he is risking injury in a time out.) Excellent suggestion. We had decided that being physical is a definite need for him. I don't know that I want to encourage throwing per se because often when we go outside, he'll throw rocks, but I definitely like the concept of taking him outside and maybe giving him a ball to kick. You're definitely right about time outs not working. > Your description doesn't sound like he's doing > it out of anger or to try to hurt someone -- he just needs something he > isn't getting. Figuring out what it is and trying to provide it is MUCH > more likely to be successful than continuing to turn everything into a > power struggle between parent and child. Bingo! Every activity with my son seems to be a power struggle. My first child was a diservice to us since she does anything we ask. It is somewhat frustrating to feel like every activity requires at least one correction of some sort with my son. But we aren't going anywhere and generally have plenty of patience, so we'll keep working on it. > If, on the other hand, he IS trying to hurt someone, and doing it > frequently, your and your wife's expertise notwithstanding, you might > need to spend time with a professional to understand the roots of his > anger. We've discussed this. We are proponents of seeking counseling even during good times, so it seems only natural that we would seek it during rough ones. My posting to the newsgroup was done on a day when my frustration was peaked and really just wanted to vent anonymously. My mother, my wife, and one of my mother's sisters are all professional counselors. Not to mention all the professional counseling friends that come with such work experience, so we have quite a large resource pool to pull from. I should have gone to them first, but as I said, posting to the newsgroup was more about venting than resolving. My wife and I are also active readers of self-help books including those on parenting and relationships. > As far as spanking without emotion -- frankly, that gives me the > willies! I'd much rather see a parent obviously angry and at the end of > their tether spank a child, than the cold blooded, calm inflicting of > pain that you describe! Perhaps, but have you read any of the mainstream books lately? They pretty much all agree that when you punish a child (spanking, time outs, etc.) it should be done without anger or notable frustration. The point is that you don't want to teach your kid that it's appropriate to act out at people out of anger. Coming from a father who nearly always acted out of anger and yelled a lot (although I wasn't really spanked), I can understand where they are coming from. When I take a moment to breathe, I am able to handle my son patiently and lovingly. I suppose "emotionless" is not as accurate as "anger-free". > And many of us understand the humor; I remember days suggesting to my > partner that a kid shaped hole in the wall might be an interesting > interior design addition to our home . . . :-D > As far as Steve goes, ignore the overblown rhetoric, and listen to what > he says beneath that. Fundamentally, he is talking about a profound > respect for the child -- something I see in far too few adults. After his first response, I don't read his postings. He claims that he is against violence of any kind but his postings are filled with violence, hate, and complete disrespect to visitors of this forum. He demonizes the very people that are simply trying to get suggestions from others. If his point was simply to stop spanking children, then he's preaching to the choir. To think that because I have spanked my son once or maybe twice doesn't mean that I'm in favor of spanking... it means I lost my cool. Since I'm only human, I realized my mistake and sought help here. My children get more attention and love from us than any children I've ever known. My wife stays home with the kids all but two days each week when she is counseling and I am home every night by 5:30. We play, we read, we talk, we wrestle, and sometimes we just snuggle. Oh yes, and occassionally we watch television. That will be the one sentence that Steve picks out to suggest that I'm a horrible parent... that we sometimes watch television. I'll just leave it as "he has issues" and should definitely seek counseling. My first reaction is that he may have had a violent childhood and for that he has my sympathy. > > Time outs are not particularly effective with LOTS of kids, anything > > over two minutes is WAY too long for a two year old, and it sounds like [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > definitely like the concept of taking him outside and maybe giving him > a ball to kick. You're definitely right about time outs not working. You can still encourage throwing -- you just have to be very, very clear about what can be thrown where. So it means buying lots of cheap nerf balls (or whatever else is cheap and you don't mind losing) and showing him where and when it's safe to throw. Or taking him to a lake to let him throw rocks in the water (one of MY favorite leisure activities!) Let's face it, it doesn't sound like this child needs encouragement to throw -- he LIKES to throw, and is doing it anyway -- what he needs is a parent who can facilitate him learning when and where it's SAFE to throw, and then letting him throw to his little heart's content. Who knows, you could have a burgeoning pitcher on your hands! > > Your description doesn't sound like he's doing > > it out of anger or to try to hurt someone -- he just needs something he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > one correction of some sort with my son. But we aren't going anywhere > and generally have plenty of patience, so we'll keep working on it. Boy, is this familiar! My now 18 year old daughter never met a power struggle she didn't want to engage! However, I learned when she was very young that the best way to work with her was to avoid them if at all possible. I'm not the best at avoiding power struggles, so I watched people who seemed to be better -- people like my mom, and, later, the director at her theater program -- for clues about how to do it. Basically, the people who work best with my daughter -- the people she responds to, the people who she ends up respecting and working well with -- are the people who seem unconcerned about whether or not she respects their position of authority. Those who want to be absolutely certain that she knows who is in charge -- man, those are generally total disasters. I wish I could explain the power struggle avoidance strategies better. You just don't engage -- you step aside. So, in the case of a child who is throwing things, you don't try to get them to stop, you direct the throwing to an appropriate area. If you absolutely have to stop an activity because it's dangerous, you do it quickly and with as little fuss as possible. My daughter has had a troubled teen period, but is doing much better now. I've always said that when she learned to differentiate between important battles and NOT important ones, her tenacity and single mindedness would serve her well. She's beginning to turn into a great grown up. But it's been difficult, so if she's as much like your son as it sounds like, hang on for a bumpy -- but frequently rewarding! -- ride. > > If, on the other hand, he IS trying to hurt someone, and doing it > > frequently, your and your wife's expertise notwithstanding, you might [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > and lovingly. I suppose "emotionless" is not as accurate as > "anger-free". And I think the current experts are full of crap. I think it is entirely appropriate for a child to know when they have done something that makes you angry -- that's a natural consequence. I'm not talking about raging at a child, but corporal punishment done calmly has always given me the creeps. Man, the thought of someone calmly and methodically and without being upset deliberately HURTING me . . . I'd rather see that they are angry and don't know what else to do with their anger than think they are capable of inflicting pain when they are NOT angry. If I thought corporal punishment was EVER appropriate, I suppose I'd think it ought to be done with the same deliberation and relative calm as other consequences -- but since I don't, I can't imagine doing it UNLESS I was at my wit's end and very angry -- and I have, on rare occassion, but have always known it represented a failure on my part. SignatureChildren won't care how much you know until they know how much you care [snipped] > > Perhaps, but have you read any of the mainstream books lately? They > > pretty much all agree that when you punish a child (spanking, time [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > UNLESS I was at my wit's end and very angry -- and I have, on rare > occassion, but have always known it represented a failure on my part. Keep in mind you are talking about corporal punishment which my wife and I don't believe is necessary for 99.99% of all children. The few times we have engaged it were due to our own failure to stay calm. It takes quite a bit to push our buttons, but it does happen. I don't see anything wrong with being calm and concerned when I tell my son that hitting me is not nice and it makes me angry. I don't believe that I have to show my anger by raising my voice or hand. I simply calmly and in a controlled manner tell my son that when he hits me, I get angry. If he hits others, they may get angry, get hurt, and/or hit back. Then I sometimes ask him if he thinks he would like to get hit. He understands well enough to answer "no", so I think he gets it. It's more of an act before he thinks behavior I believe. You seem to be thinking that I would move and act like a robot. That's probably just a limitation on using the usenet for conversation or a failure on my part to communicate effectively in this forum. I'm kind of a "write before I think" person... guess my son gets it from his old man. I just wish he was a bit more passive like me. Hitting others was never a problem for me. > [snipped] > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > see anything wrong with being calm and concerned when I tell my son > that hitting me is not nice and it makes me angry. I agree with the willies issue here. The fact that you just stated that you calmly tell your son that you're angry with him and are going to hit him becuase of it is horrid. I don't understand how you can state that you do this, yet state that you don't present violence to him. Not only are you presenting violence, but you are justifying that this violence is ok becuase he made you angry. > > dragonlady <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message > news:<mehouck-6486B7.18581413072004@news.SF.sbcglobal.net>... [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > presenting violence, but you are justifying that this violence is ok becuase > he made you angry. As I read through this this, I think I'm getting more confused. On the one hand, you say you don't believe in spanking most of the time, but your son got spanked because you reached the end of your rope. On the other, you say the spanking was done calmly. If you were able to stay calm, then you had the control to NOT spank -- you can't have it both ways! And I still say that calmly telling a child that you're going to hurt them is creepier than letting the child see that you are angry, at the end of your rope, and didn't know what else to do. (Plus I've always thought that spanking a child to "teach" them that hitting other people isn't OK is, at best, silly! Is it really OK to hit people only when you're bigger than them so you can get away with it?) meh SignatureChildren won't care how much you know until they know how much you care If you are doing the right thing, don't worry much. Kids are all different. I had a similar problem with my two daughters. One was very easy to handle and the other one too difficult. The easy one had more attention when she was a baby while the second one didn't. Then I decided to compensate that attention and I guess it's working. Now she is five, and so far, I had no complains from her school. She is very smart and she tells me every day that she loves me :). She expects everything to be fair according to her, she is very imposing, but she seems to be turning into a good girl. > I have a two year old son (will be 3 in October 2004) who is not > responding to our disciplinary tactics. We have a 6 year old daughter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the fact that he is a boy and some of it because he is the second > child. Regardless of the reasons, we are at our wits end. ------------------ If you're real you need to shut the f.ck up more. You need to sit down and listen and watch him, and quit trying to control him. > We don't take such a claim lightly. I have degrees in Psychology and > Sociology and my wife is a professional child counselor with degrees > in Psychology and Counseling, so we've tried most of the standard > recommendations. -------------------- You're a f.cking lying troll! People with that kind of experience neither need advice from Usenet nor are they so stupid that they seek it there. > We try to first set a good example and provide a loving home with > plenty of encouragement and positive reinforcement for desired [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > someone again. We've tried redirecting his behavior to a new > activity, but this is sometimes harder than it sounds ------------------------- You're a f.cking liar, two year olds aren't that verbal, nor would he even understand such a statement as you are claiming that you try to elicit from him! > My wife and I are disgusted with ourselves since we have resorted to > tactics that we swore we would never engage. For example, I have > spanked him a few times which is something our first child has never > required. Twice my wife has bitten him back to show him how it feels > when he bites her. Neither of us think this is a good way to deal > with his behavior, but we feel we are running out of options. ----------------------------- You're a trolling shithead. You merely filtered the last such argument from this group for key phrases and themes and planted this piece of sh.t here hoping it would grow and fester!! Steve |
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