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Family Forum / Pregnancy / Pregnancy / February 2006would you go to this?
http://www.birthlightconference.com I just got this link sent through, having read the schedule, I desire passionately to attend, it totally fits in with my role as a lay member of the maternity services liason comittee at our local hospital, and also with my current project in setting up a swimming class for postnatally depressed mums. It's being held the other side of our town, so practically very doable, though financially a bit more tricky. I just can't imagine this happening and all these people all being gathered just a few miles away and not being there! Imagine being taught the Gaskin manouvere by Ina May Gaskin herself! Am I crackers? Anne I wouldn't, but I am not interested in this kind of stuff. But, if this is something that you are interested in, then sure why not.  SignatureSue (mom to three girls) > http://www.birthlightconference.com > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Anne >I wouldn't, but I am not interested in this kind of stuff. But, if this is > something that you are interested in, then sure why not. the why not is the money thing unfortunately, the cost would be more than we would spend on a weeks holiday. Anne > http://www.birthlightconference.com > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Anne Oh awesome! I'd love it! I didn't see the price though... is it exxy? Jo SignatureWoman, Wife, Mother, Midwife > Oh awesome! I'd love it! I didn't see the price though... is it exxy? hi Jo, it was you and people like Elfanie, who I was wondering what you'd think about it. Price is around 350pounds which is more than we would spend on a holiday these days, our budget is fairly tight, however it is fairly similar to the tax I overpaid 2 years ago, so if the inland revenue actually get there act together and refund it, I'd have the funds. There may be a couple of agencies that I can convince to donate something towards it, which would be brill, my MIL is happy to care for the children. Ada will be 13 months, so breastfeeding wouldn't be too much of a problem, all in all, it just seems good timing for me. I'm quite surprised that such a thing has been able to happen here, there isn't a particularly strong natural birth movement here, birthlight does quite a bit of stuff, but they don't really reach that many people, probably only 1-2% of the births locally, we did there antenatal classes and they were excellent. Now I've just got to work on my husband! Anne >Am I crackers? > >Anne You're not crackers.... you're just mean!! Showing me this....I'm thinking, "what a wonderful conference this sounds like it's going to be..." ....and then finding out that it's in the UK!! ARGH! You're downright mean, lady! *laugh* (as a side note...ina may usually doesn't talk about the gaskin maneuvers at conferences....) Michel Odent is interesting to listen to...even if I don't agree with everything he says. Frederick Leboyer is awesome...simply awesome. Suzanne Arms...heh...she's funny. She was at my house about 7 years ago and I just fell in love with her... You should have a lot of fun.... Stephanie Soderblom CLD CCCE CD(DONA) Mommy to Mikael 5/9/95 - Kerstyn 8/6/99 - Kevin 8/30/02 and Megan 5/16/05 Birth Minister/Doula/CBE/Pregnancy-Birth Photography Mesa, AZ http://www.birthdiaries.com VISIT OUR NEW ONLINE STORE! > (as a side note...ina may usually doesn't talk about the gaskin > maneuvers at conferences....) I double checked the schedule, she's doing one talk, but also a workshop, specifically titled the gaskin manouvere > Michel Odent is interesting to listen to...even if I don't agree with > everything he says. > Frederick Leboyer is awesome...simply awesome. > Suzanne Arms...heh...she's funny. She was at my house about 7 years > ago and I just fell in love with her... ok, now I really want to go! Anne DOES THE GASKIN MANEUVER INCLUDE SEMISITTING? Someone wrote: >> (as a side note...ina may usually doesn't talk about the gaskin >> maneuvers at conferences....) Anne Rogers at annekh23@yahoo.co.uk replied: <snip> > I double checked the schedule, she's doing one talk, but also a workshop, > specifically titled the gaskin manouvere <snip> Anne, If you attend... Please find out if the Gaskin maneuver includes closing the birth canal up to 30% (semisitting). Years ago, I asked Ina May Gaskin why she was doing semisitting deliveries (as described in her early articles in the journal BIRTH). Ina May told me what a co-author of Williams Obstetrics had just told me: "Most women don't need the extra room." What about the BABIES? Years later, someone emailed me a quote (reportedly) from Ina May recommending semmisitting (closing the birth canal up to 30%), as in, >> [GASKIN] "Turning the woman to hands and knees position is often enough >> to >> dislodge the shoulder. The process of turning over dislodges the stuck >> shoulder. This technique should also work in reverse. Try moving from >> hands and knees to semi-sit. If neither of these positions work, try to >> have her squat." http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/2985 Ina May's breech video, I'm told, shows the woman on her sacrum - and standard breech protocol in medical texts is to keep the woman delivering a breech on her sacrum. (The "Mauriceau maneuver" in breeches involves an assistant pushing down on the mother's abdomen/on the after-coming head, thereby closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30% with more force.) ALSO: Standard forceps protocol is to keep women in lithotomy/birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30%. See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 See also: RNs: 'Stitches, episiotomy, and postpartum complications' (Maternal care learning needs) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3725 Obstetricians are routinely KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck! WHY isn't Ina May speaking out? I hope you'll ask her, Anne, if you attend. Todd PS Years ago, Jan Tritten, editor of Midwifery Today, cancelled my full length article about semisitting closing the birth canal up to 30%. In a subsequent "Midwifery Trick of the Trade," Jan Tritten recommended semisitting. Arrrgghhh... FOR NEW READERS... BACK IN 2004 I WROTE: Recently, Jan Tritten published a CNMwife who indicates that Israeli midwives are using the LITHOTOMY version of this grisly "Midwifery Trick of the Trade": "Midwifery in Israel...[80% of births are] attended by midwives. Midwives routinely...deliver in lithotomy position..." --Judy Slome Cohain, CNM. [Midwifery Today Int Midwife. 2004 Autumn;(71):50-1. PubMed abstract] Lithotomy closes the birth canal up to 30% just like semisitting. TRANSLATION: Israeli midwives routinely close birth canals up to 30%. I also wrote (back in 2004): Earth to Jan: "MIDWIVES HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO BE PROTECTORS OF NORMAL BIRTH..." --Ina May Gaskin, Elizabeth Davis and Diane Holzer, speakers at an upcoming Midwifery Today conference... http://www.midwiferytoday.com/conferences/eugene2005/program.asp (emphasis added) Ina May Gaskin should speak out publicly about obstetricians and midwives routinely closing birth canals up to 30% - and KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck. Perhaps she doesn't speak out because she did semisitting births for years and is now recommending closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30% as part of her "Gaskin maneuver." IS she doing that? See above. Perhaps she doesn't speak out because other prominent midwives (Jan above; and Yale CNMwifery Prof. Helen Varny) promote semisitting/closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30%. Perhaps midwives are sucking up to the obstetricians - who are lying to cover-up. For the Four OB Cover-up Lies... See "Dents in babies' skulls" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e The grisly birth-canal-closing travesty would end real quick if midwifery and obstetric luminaries would speak out. Hey WAIT a minute! Allowing the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% is as easy as - well - WASHING HANDS. Obstetricians had a BIG problem with washing their hands after dissecting the women they had killed. Obstetricians blithely went from dissecting room to delivery room - and they had a mortality rate 50 times that of midwives practicing in the same hospital. Semmelweis tried to tell them what was wrong... They ignored him... Todd Dr. Gastaldo Hillsboro, Oregon USA todd@chiromotion.com > Please find out if the Gaskin maneuver includes closing the birth canal up > to 30% (semisitting). Umm, since the Gaskin maneuver involves moving a woman to hands-and-knees, it would be hard to imagine it as involving semisitting. Best wishes, Ericka Actually the Gaskin maneuver closes the birth canal up to 100%. It is designed for people who don't want to be parents. ALATH'S SORDID HUMOR See below PREGNANT? It is easy to allow your birth canal to open an "extra" up to 30%. See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 ALATH at alath@gateway.net wrote on 2/24/06 6:34 PM: > Actually the Gaskin maneuver closes the birth canal up to 100%. It is > designed for people who don't want to be parents. Pretty funny, Alath, in a sordid sort of way... BTW, please see my Jan 11, 2005 post below. Did you ever find out if obstetricians at your hospital are closing birth canals the "extra" up to 30% by using semisitting delivery? Did your friend KEEP the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30% - as is recommended by ACOG still in 2005 after I warned ACOG about the grisly biomechanics years ago? See again: ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 Todd From: Todd Gastaldo - view profile Date: Tues, Jan 11 2005 7:16 am Email: "Todd Gastaldo" <tgasta...@earthlink.net> Groups: misc.kids.pregnancy Not yet ratedRating: show options Reply to Author| Forward| Print| Individual Message| Show original| Report Abuse| Find messages by this author THE "HIGHER MALPRACTICE" GAME... OBs MOAN ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK! Ericka Kammerer wrote: >> Anyway, it just seems to me that we talk a lot >> about CYA medicine, and I'm sure it's an issue, but we >> don't seem to do a lot of good thinking about *why* the >> legal pressures are there. I rather suspect that tort >> reform isn't going to do much good, but it's the only >> solution I ever seem to hear mentioned. >> Best wishes, >> Ericka Alath replied: > Ericka, the legal pressures are there because there is a lot of money > in it. I personally know an OB who is being sued for a shoulder [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > was upsetting that their baby's arm got broken. This doctor acted > appropriately and saved the baby's life, and now she is being sued. If this shoulder dystocia occurred with the woman semisitting or dorsal - that is obvious criminal negligence given The Four OB Lies. If the birth canal was KEPT closed during the shoulder dystocia event - well it just makes the criminal negligence more obvious. Was the woman semisitting or dorsal? Are ANY women placed semisitting or dorsal at your hospital, Alath? At most hospitals semisitting (birth-canal-closing) is routine. > She > will probably win the case after an enormously expensive defense, but > in the mean time, her malpractice insurance has gone up $35,000 per > year. If the OB *was* closing the birth canal up to 30% and KEEPING it closed - and this were to come out in court - I suspect she would not win. In any event, if the birth canal was closed the parents should be informed of this so that they can encourage their attorney to discuss The Four OB Lies in court. > All the other providers in our hospital know about this case, and > it has had a tremendous effect on their practice. All the other providers in your hospital are probably still doing semisitting and dorsal deliveries - closing birth canals up to 30% and KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get stuck. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG THOUGH ALATH - AND TELL ME WHICH HOSPITAL - I WILL WANT TO START RAVING ABOUT THE FIRST HOSPITAL TO STOP CLOSING BIRTH CANALS THE "EXTRA" UP TO 30%. > Women are now being > offered c-sections any time there is a large baby or a slow labor. I've > argued this is not evidence-based, Arrrggghhh.. Closing the birth canal up to 30% is not evidence-based. > and the reply is, "I'll start > practicing evidence-based medicine when they start practicing > evidence-based law." LOL! **OBs** - no doubt on the advice of ACOG attorneys - are practicing "evidence-based law." If OBs simply suddenly stopped closing birth canals the "extra" up to 30% it would be tantamount to admitting the evidence that they are being criminally negligent. How SMUGLY OBs are closing birth canals! > The fact is, a lawyer can't make a case out of an > unnecessary c-section. No, the fact is, lawyers are choosing NOT to make a case out of unnecessary c-sections. Obstetricians CAUSE cephalopelvic disproportion and failure to progress then perform c-sections BEcause of cephalpelvic disproportion and failure to progress, as in, > Women are now being > offered c-sections any time there is a large baby or a slow labor. I've > argued this is not evidence-based, Nope - not evidence-based - esp. not when OBs are knowingly closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up. > But if you didn't do a c-section and something > goes wrong, then it is easy to make the case that there was something > you should have done but didn't. Yep! It's easy to make the case that the OB should have allowed the birth canal to open maximally. > If you do a c-section and there is > still a bad outcome, you have the defense that "I did everything I > could." No, you don't have this defense if you were closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30%. It's obvious assault and battery for OBs to slice vaginas/abdomens - surgically/fraudulently inferring they are doing/have done everything possible to open birth canals - even as they close birth canals the "extra" up to 30%. > In the rules of this game, doing a c-section is a "get out of > jail free card," TRANSLATION: OBs are committing SURGICAL assault and battery instead of simply not committing the MECHANICAL assault and battery in the first place. Allowing the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% is not going to prevent all c-sections or shoulder dystocias - but watch out once a jury in a birth trauma trial learns of The Four OB Lies... > while any other course of action puts you at risk. > This game is making the lawyers rich and driving up c-section rates > with no benefit to moms or babies in general - outcomes have not > improved. Correction: The "game" is also making OBs rich. As long as OBs maintain their illegitimate monopoly on birth, WOMEN (and their families) are going to pay the OBs' higher malpractice insurance premiums. The key is the OB monopoly on birth. It must be maintained at all costs or the "game" will be up. Higher malpractice insurance premiums feathers nicely into the "homebirth is dangerous" anti-scientific/anti-competitive authoritative rhetoric of mighty OBs. OBs go to legislatures and demand to supervise homebirth midwives (without actually going to homebirths!) then refuse to supervise homebirth midwives because their malpractice liability insurers won't allow it. It's a *sweet* game for OBs as long as it lasts. Frequent lawsuits - lawyers winning money and OBs losing money - it's just part of the cost of maintaing the crucial OB monopoly on birth... Women and babies lose their LIVES occasionally - and OBs lose money but keep practicing - it's THE COMMUNITY NORM to close birth canals dontchaknow! (Cue Ericka here.) What's that? Someone is saying that OBs are being driven from practice? MAYBE the "game" is finally winding down - a bit. Cue the CNMwives - physician-extenders waiting in the wings - also birth-canal-closers! The "game" is maintaining the monopoly on birth. Higher malpractice insurance premiums - and a lot of public moaning by OBs - are just necessary parts of the game. With the monopoly - with the assistance of physician-extenders called CNMwives - the INTERVENTION-HAPPY birth industry simply passes the higher costs on to the women whose birth canals they are knowingly closing. Health insurance costs rise - making health insurers happier too! Isn't this a FUN game! Alath, will you find out if OBs and/or CNMwives at your hospital are doing birth-canal-closing/semisitting births and if they are ask them to stop? Thanks. Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo t...@chiromotion.com PS Ericka says to Alath... "[A]sk yourself what the difference is between the client who sues for a broken collarbone due to shoulder dystocia and the one who doesn't? Betcha the client who understands what it is, that maternal position can have an effect (and that choosing an epidural can limit the ability of the mother to adopt positions that can avoid or resolve shoulder dystocia), and that the remedies are X, Y, and Z with risk/benefit profiles A, B, and C is much less likely to sue than the uneducated client--partly because the client understands the possible outcomes and why they'd be chosen and partly because the client takes some personal responsibility for decisions about things like epidurals and position (assuming, of course, that the client is actually allowed effective choice in those areas). Obviously, that won't be perfect. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink--and you can educate clients all you want and some just won't "drink"..." Ericka, you are funny! Obstetricians and midwives and childbirth educators are WITHHOLDING "water" - "forgetting" BEFORE birth to tell pregnant women that OBs and midwives are closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck - and lying about it... Then AFTER birth - if there is a poor outcome - women STILL aren't told that OBs closed the birth canal! UBPN - the United Brachial Plexus Network still refuses to give this information to mothers of paralyzed babies! And you are pretending that Henci Goer is giving out the information "clear as can be," as in, > You keep harping on this, but she says clear as can be > (in OMvRR) "The lithotomy position is the worst position because [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > upright positions. Heck, she even uses your favorite term > "lying" when describing the mismanagement of labor and "CPD." Good one Ericka! NOWHERE (in your quoting of her) does she say lithotomy CLOSES. Nowhere does she say that SEMISITTING closes. Nowhere does she say that OBs are KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" 30% when babies get stuck. These are key lies of omission. I will keep harping until she stops lying by omission. Good joke, though! Todd BIZARRE! Again Alath, will you find out if OBs and/or CNMwives at your hospital are doing birth-canal-closing/semisitting births and if they are ask them to stop? Pregnant? It is easy to allow your birth canal to open an "extra" up to 30%... See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 GASKIN PROMOTED KEEPING BIRTH CANAL CLOSED AS A "FIRST MANEUVER" Obstetricians say that their McRoberts maneuver allows the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30% - but it is a lie - the McRoberts maneuver - as explained in major texts and in the ACOG shoulder dystocia video - KEEPS THE BIRTH CANAL CLOSED THE "EXTRA" UP TO 30% WHEN BABIES GET STUCK... See OB Lie #4 in "Dents in babies' skulls" http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e Oddly, prominent midwife Ina May Gaskin promoted this same birth-canal-closing McRoberts maneuver - as a "first maneuver" in shoulder dystocia. See below. [ERICKA] = Ericka Kammerer [TODD] = Todd Gastaldo, DC Ericka snipped extremely relevant aspects of my post in making her smug "Ummm" comment... I've put Ericka's reply in context below... in article C02367DD.10FAC%tgastaldo@earthlink.net, Todd Gastaldo at tgastaldo@earthlink.net wrote on 2/23/06 1:23 PM: > DOES THE GASKIN MANEUVER INCLUDE SEMISITTING? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Please find out if the Gaskin maneuver includes closing the birth canal up > to 30% (semisitting). [ERICKA] Umm, since the Gaskin maneuver involves moving a woman to hands-and-knees, it would be hard to imagine it as involving semisitting. [TODD] As Ericka indicates, the Gaskin maneuver INVOLVES moving the woman to hands-and-knees. It may ALSO involve semisitting/closing the birth canal up to 30%, as in the quote Ericka snipped - which was reportedly a quote from Ina May Gaskin. See below. [TODD] Ericka also snipped my point that Gaskin reported DOING birth-canal-closing semisitting deliveries - to the medical literature, as in, > Years ago, I asked Ina May Gaskin why she was doing semisitting deliveries > (as described in her early articles in the journal BIRTH). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > What about the BABIES? IS THERE A GRISLY "REVERSE" GASKIN MANEUVER? [TODD] Here is the extremely pertinent text Ericka quoted... > Years later, someone emailed me a quote (reportedly) from Ina May > recommending semmisitting (closing the birth canal up to 30%), as in, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> have her squat." > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/2985 [TODD] In addition to Ericka snipping the pertinent fact that Gaskin reported DOING birth-canal-closing semisitting deliveries, Ericka snipped my point that Ina May's breech video reportedly includes closing the birth canal up to 30%, as in, > Ina May's breech video, I'm told, shows the > woman on her sacrum - and standard breech protocol in medical texts > is to keep the woman delivering a breech on her sacrum. (The "Mauriceau > maneuver" in breeches involves an assistant pushing down on the mother's > abdomen/on the after-coming head, thereby closing the birth canal the > "extra" up to 30% with more force.) [TODD] Ericka also snipped my point that obstetricians are keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck, as in, > ...Standard forceps protocol is to keep women in lithotomy/birth canal > closed the "extra" up to 30%. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Obstetricians are routinely KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to > 30% when babies get stuck! [TODD] Ericka also snipped my key question: > WHY isn't Ina May speaking out? [TODD] Here is ANOTHER key question: Why isn't prominent childbirth educator Henci Goer speaking out/mentioning that obstetricians are keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck - and lying to cover-up? [TODD] I mention this because previously, when I noted that Henci is failing to mention the OB lies...Ericka replied: "You keep harping on this, but [Henci] says clear as can be (in OMvRR) 'The lithotomy position is the worst position because it increases the incidence of fetal distress, the mother pushes the baby uphill, and her pelvis, made flexible by the influence of pregnancy hormones, is fixed in position by the delivery table.' She also cites several studies and reviews promoting upright positions. Heck, she even uses your favorite term 'lying' when describing the mismanagement of labor and 'CPD.'" http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/e01438b50a337c72 [TODD] I replied: "Good one Ericka!...NOWHERE (in your quoting of her) does she say lithotomy CLOSES...Nowhere does she say that SEMISITTING closes...Nowhere does she say that OBs are KEEPING birth canals closed the 'extra' 30% when babies get stuck...These are key lies of omission....I will keep harping until she stops lying by omission...Good joke, though!" http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/aa16e8654b160ba2 [TODD] Women shouldn't have to ASK for the "extra" up to 30%. Most women don't KNOW to ask - and obstetricians (and prominent childbirth educators) are telling them - which is why law enforcement should step in... [TODD] Prominent childbirth educator Henci Goer is NOT telling women - yet Ericka publicly pretends that Henci IS telling women. Bizarre that. > I hope you'll ask her, Anne, if you attend. > > Todd [TODD] Ericka also snipped my point that childbirth educator and midwife Jan Tritten recommended semisitting/closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30%, as in, > PS Years ago, Jan Tritten, editor of Midwifery Today, cancelled my full > length article about semisitting closing the birth canal up to 30%. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Arrrgghhh... [TODD] I suspect that Jan Tritten got her bizarre semisitting/birth-canal-closing "Midwifery Trick of the Trade" from Ina May Gaskin. [TODD] Ericka snipped my point that Israeli midwives also use the birth-canal-closing lithotomy position, as in, > FOR NEW READERS... > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > USA > todd@chiromotion.com GASKIN PROMOTED KEEPING BIRTH CANAL CLOSED AS A "FIRST MANEUVER"... [TODD] Ina May Gaskin and co-authors Meenan, Hunt and Ball (URL below) subtly promoted semisitting deliveries/closing the birth canal up to 30% - and also KEEPING the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30% as a "first maneuver" in shoulder dystocia... [TODD] They wrote: "The McRoberts maneuver, or hyperflexion of the mother's thighs onto her abdomen, is an elegantly simple maneuver that releases the infant's impacted anterior shoulder and causes cephalad rotation of the mother's pubic bone and a subsequent decrease in its angle of inclination...Because it is fast, simple, and can be done in any situation, however, it should probably be the first maneuver attempted when gentle traction fails to deliver the shoulders." [TODD] ARRRRGGGGHHH! "Gentle traction" with the birth canal closed up to 30% is insane! You don't do semisitting/birth-canal-closing deliveries - and you don't recommend KEEPING the birth canal closed as a "first maneuver." [TODD] Ina May Gaskin and co-authors explained: "The explanation for the success of [the Gaskin maneuver] probably lies in movement at the sacroiliac joints at term, which can result in a l-cm to 2-cm increase in the sagittal diameter of the pelvic outlet... babies who were tightly wedged in the lithotomy position have been known to literally fall out of the vagina once this position is assumed..." [TODD] Ina May Gaskin and co-authors concluded: "Admittedly, these recommendations...are not likely to be adopted in large traditional centers." --Anna L. Meenan, MD, Ina May Gaskin, MA, Pamela Hunt, and Charles A. Ball, MD A New (Old) Maneuver for the Management of Shoulder Dystocia [May be the same article that appeared in The Journal of Family Practice, Vol. 32, No 6, 1991.] http://web.archive.org/web/20030207231521/http://www.thefarm.org/lifestyle/d ystocia.html [TODD] I wonder what would have happened at "large traditional centers"/large maternity hospitals by now had Ina May Gaskin and co-authors NOT subtly promoted closing the birth canal up to 30% and keeping it closed the "extra" up to 30% as a "first maneuver" in shoulder dystocia cases. [TODD] I'll ask the key question again: WHY isn't Ina May speaking out/protesting obstetricians keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck? (Ericka: Why isn't HENCI GOER speaking out/protesting?) [TODD] Why did Ina May promote keeping the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30% as a "first maneuver"? [TODD] Ericka's bizarre pretense about Henci Goer (see above) may help explain some of Ericka's difficulty imagining that Ina May Gaskin may still be advising keeping birth canals closed - moving women to "semi-sit" during her "Gaskin maneuver" ministrations as indicated in the quote that Ericka conveniently snipped. [TODD] Regardless whether the quote that was forwarded to me came from Ina May Gaskin - regardless whether there is a "reverse" birth-canal-closing Gaskin maneuver - why did Ina May promote keeping the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30% as a "first maneuver" in shoulder dystocia when she wrote to the medical literature about her "Gaskin maneuver"? [TODD] I won't go into the fact that in the same article Ina May and colleagues forwarded the bizarre inlet shoulder dystocia impossibility - that is another story...but I will say this: I think the bizarre inlet shoulder dystocia impossibility - was an early obstetric effort to cover-up the obstetricians' bizarre, ongoing birth-canal-closing behavior.... Thanks for reading everyone. Sincerely, Todd Dr. Gastaldo Hillsboro, Oregon USA todd@chiromotion.com This post will be archived for global access in the Google usenet archive. Search http://groups.google.com for "Gaskin promoted keeping birth canal closed as a 'first maneuver'" ok, Todd, for once I read through your whole post and you know it's really really difficult to follow it, perhaps you should consider your writing style, if I'm finding it difficult and I was wanting to get to the bottom of things then others are not going to bother to read. Aside from that, yes, if I get to go to the conference (which is looking likely :-)), I will be at that workshop, I'll go with an open mind and see what she is saying, then ask questions as necessary. The good news is that in the UK a lot of natural birth bods and magazines etc. do point out repeatedly to get off your back. Though it isn't normal in hospitals for other positions to be encouraged, I've heard good things about birthing centres, which if I'm remembering my figures right is about 12% of births. However there is still a long way to go! Anne Pregnant? Obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30%. It is easy to allow your birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30%... See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 > ok, Todd, for once I read through your whole post and you know it's really > really difficult to follow it, ##### Thanks for trying. > perhaps you should consider your writing > style, ##### It is likely somewhat unpleasant for people to read me challenging Ericka's recent smugness and related dishonesty about Henci Goer - but it's a risk I take. Same goes for my repeatedly pointing out Larry McMahan's bizarre notion that standard obstetric care and cover-up lies constitute mere "substandard" care and not crime. ##### While it is always possible that writing style will hamper comprehension - but I think length is the more formidable obstacle for most. ##### The length of my posts is why I try to begin nearly every post with the simple message, as in, Pregnant? Obstetricians are closing birth canals up to 30%. It is easy to allow your birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30%... See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 > if I'm finding it difficult and I was wanting to get to the bottom of > things then others are not going to bother to read. ##### I appreciate you wanting to get to the bottom of things. You are right - if you have an interest - and YOU had trouble reading my post - others are likely not even going to bother to read the whole thing. Hopefully they get the simple message though. > Aside from that, yes, if I get to go to the conference (which is looking > likely :-)), ##### I do hope you get to go. > I will be at that workshop, I'll go with an open mind and see > what she is saying, then ask questions as necessary. ##### Asking unpleasant questions of an authority is difficult. I would understand if you did not ask Gaskin any necessary questions - like - why aren't you protesting obstetricians closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck. Then again, authorities protesting would speed change... > The good news is that in the UK a lot of natural birth bods and magazines > etc. do point out repeatedly to get off your back. ###### The UK was the location for Lilford's birth fraud - and Gardosi's. (I still think it astonishing that The Lancet never published my criticism that no one squatted in Gardosi's 1989 "randomised controlled trial of squatting" during delivery.) Also, there is UK radiologist JGB Russell's 1980s promotion of semisitting after he reported in 1969 radiographic evidence that semisitting closes the birth canal up to 30%. I think the Gaskin fraud is just part of the ongoing grisly obstetric/midwifery gag. > Though it isn't normal in > hospitals for other positions to be encouraged, ###### Even when "alternative" positions are encouraged - women are often moved back to semisitting or dorsal - thereby closing their birth canal the "extra" up to 30% for the actual delivery. And when babies get stuck, it's the norm to KEEP the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30%. It's the bizarrest thing. It's happening every day in a hospital near you. > I've heard good things about > birthing centres, which if I'm remembering my figures right is about 12% of > births. However there is still a long way to go! > > Anne ##### I hope you get to go to the conference. ##### FOR ANY NEW READERS... ##### Here is the post Anne had difficulty reading. in article C025DEEF.11195%tgastaldo@earthlink.net, Todd Gastaldo at tgastaldo@earthlink.net wrote on 2/25/06 10:16 AM: > Pregnant? It is easy to allow your birth canal to open an "extra" up to > 30%... [quoted text clipped - 340 lines] > Search http://groups.google.com for "Gaskin promoted keeping birth canal > closed as a 'first maneuver'" > ###### Even when "alternative" positions are encouraged - women are often > moved back to semisitting or dorsal - thereby closing their birth canal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the norm to KEEP the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30%. It's the > bizarrest thing. It's happening every day in a hospital near you. I'm only going to answer this bit, to disagree, this is not my experience at all, nor have I heard it reported, I ended up having both my babies on the bed, but they were very happy for me to squat and moved protective stuff onto the floor ready. Whilst I've heard many many complaints about UK hospitals, I've never heard anyone say "I wanted to deliver in position x, but they made me lie on my back". Of course they do flip you over onto your back if problems develop, but at least not automatically flipping you over is a step in the right direction. Thanks for trying to improve your style, I was able to read your response much more easily. Anne GASKIN'S GOOF (Part One): Midwives: Was it intentional? See the end of this post. Pregnant? Obstetricians are senselessly closing birth canals up to 30%. You can easily allow your birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30%... See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606 I wrote: >> ###### Even when "alternative" positions are encouraged - women are often >> moved back to semisitting or dorsal - thereby closing their birth canal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> the norm to KEEP the birth canal closed the "extra" up to 30%. It's the >> bizarrest thing. It's happening every day in a hospital near you. Anne Rodgers replied: > I'm only going to answer this bit, to disagree, this is not my experience at > all, nor have I heard it reported, ##### But Anne! Although you didn't personally experience it, the worst case scenario - obstetricians KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck ***IS*** part of your experience (and part of mine too - and everyone else's - it's THE NORM when babies get stuck - and not just in the UK! ##### Stated another way, senseless birth trauma - we all experience it - in one way or another - even if it's "just" in the form of higher health care costs or higher taxes. ##### How FUNNY (sordidly so) that obstetricians get all hot and bothered about women trying vaginal deliveries/VBACs. They routinely close birth canals up to 30% and complain about how their malpractice liability insurance costs go up if they are sued for doing a vaginal birth ##### Incidentally, obstetricians SHOULD be sued for doing vaginal births with the birth canal closed. Meanwhile plaintiff's attorneys fail to tell juries about the obstetric birth-canal-closing - which can cause c-sections and other birth trauma in the first place. (I wonder if Alath will finally answer my question about the MD she knows who broke the baby's arm at delivery. Regardless whether that MD was closing the birth canal the "extra" up to 30% - that bizarre behavior is the NORM and we all experience it one way or another - some of us yet to be born will still senselessly experience it up close and personal - in the birth canal - because of silence. I do hope Alath answers.) > I ended up having both my babies on the > bed, but they were very happy for me to squat and moved protective stuff > onto the floor ready. ##### You are right - the squatting option is good - but women should be explicitly told finally that semisitting and dorsal CLOSE THE BIRTH CANAL UP TO 30% - and that LOTS of positions (not just squatting) allow the birth canal to open the "extra" up to 30%. Explicitly shifting from "squatting opens" to "semisitting and dorsal CLOSE" of course would have women protesting being placed on their back if problems develop, as in, >... Of course they do flip you over onto your > back if problems develop, ##### ARRGGHHH!! "Of course"?!!! We are talking about tiny nervous systems - babies' lives and limbs - here. When obstetricians are keeping birth canals closed as they push violently with oxytocin and pull gruesomely with hands, forceps or vacuums - one does not content oneself with saying something inane like, > but at least not automatically flipping you over > is a step in the right direction. ##### WHEN BABIES VERY LIVES ARE ON THE LINE one exposes the obstetric lies that perpetuate the massive crime. ##### NEW READERS... ##### For the Four OB Lies.... See Dents in babies' skulls" http://groups.google.com/group/ misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/08abfc7ff242150e #### Sorry to be so blunt, Anne, but I believe 100% of babies about to be born would want me to be so even if no one else (but me) chooses to publicly protest the obvious obstetric crime... > Whilst I've heard many many complaints about UK > hospitals, I've never heard anyone say "I wanted to deliver in position x, > but they made me lie on my back". ##### But they DO make women lie on their backs - at the stupidest point - if problems occur! > Thanks for trying to improve your style, I was able to read your response > much more easily. > > Anne ##### Thank you for reading. My style is to help the helpless - not make excuses for obstetricians - who (did I mention) are LYING to cover-up their bizarre birth canal closing crime. ##### As I noted some of the worst lying - "scientific" lying - has been done in medical journal articles submitted by UK medical doctors. ##### One last note, Anne. Thank you for calling attention to Ina May Gaskin's upcoming conference presentation at Birthlight... ##### GASKIN'S GOOF: Why DID midwife Ina May Gaskin promote the birth-canal-closing McRoberts maneuver as a "first maneuver" when babies' shoulders get stuck? See Gaskin promoted keeping the birth canal closed as a "first maneuver"... http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/8cd40a92df32e484 ##### You don't need to ask Ina May at her presentation, Anne. I will ask her by copying her this post via the conference organizers via conference@birthlight.com. And hopefully any midwives reading will also be asking her. ##### It doesn't matter if Gaskin's Goof was intentional. What about her silence, failure to protest? ##### Hopefully all midwives - including Ina May will join me (finally) in publicly protesting obstetricians closing birth canals and KEEPING birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% when babies get stuck - as they pull with forceps - sometimes pulling so hard they rip spinal nerves out of tiny spinal cords. ##### It's a massive spinal manipulation crime "performed" by the most prolific manipulators of babies' spines - and to my knowledge I am the only doctor of chiropractic protesting. ##### Hopefully, though, a military chiropractor (Patrick Delamere, DC) will join me in working to save tiny lives and tiny limbs - not to mention working to PREVENT more vertebral subluxations than DCs will ever be able to adjust by hand... See MDs must follow chiropractor's orders (Patrick Delamere, DC) http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/4159 ##### I'll again email Patric Delamere, DC, the first doctor of chiropractic to be in command of a military unit in the United States. Dynamic Chiropractic Online, March 12, 2006, Volume 24, Issue 06 http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/24/06/09.html ##### Todd ##### Dr. Gastaldo ##### Hillsboro, Oregon ##### USA ##### todd@chiromotion.com ##### Copied to: Patrick Delamere, DC Commander 244th Medical Clinic Camp Smith (Cortland Manor) New York, NY Via drdelamere@aol.com - also via Floyd Miller, DC, Chief Chiropractor at Camp Smith - via chirolife@aol.com ##### Copied to: Ina May Gaskin via Birthlight conference via conference@birthlight.com. (Sheila Kitzinger is also a presenter. I wonder if she ever changed her text as she said she would after I called her years ago and asked her to call me back collect - which she did.) GASKIN'S GOOF: Why did midwife Ina May Gaskin promote the birth-canal-closing McRoberts maneuver as a "first maneuver" when babies' shoulders get stuck? See Gaskin promoted keeping the birth canal closed as a "first maneuver"... http://groups.google.com/group/misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/8cd40a92df32e484 Ina May: Please finally publicly protest this bizarre birth-canal-closing obstetric behavior. Thanks. This post will be archived for global access in the Google usenet archive. Search http://groups.google.com for "Gaskin's Goof (Part One): Midwives: Was it intentional." > http://www.birthlightconference.com I just got this link sent through, > having read the schedule, I desire passionately to attend, it totally > fits in with my role as a lay member of the maternity services liason > comittee at our local hospital, and also with my current project in > setting up a swimming class for postnatally depressed mums. > It's being held the other side of our town, so practically very doable, > though financially a bit more tricky. I just can't imagine this > happening and all these people all being gathered just a few miles away > and not being there! Imagine being taught the Gaskin manouvere by Ina > May Gaskin herself! > Am I crackers? No, you're not crackers, I'd feel just the same if it were the other side of my town! I'd say follow your heart, if it's at all possible. Sidheag DS Colin Oct 27 2003 Anne asked > > Am I crackers? Sidheag responded > No, you're not crackers, I'd feel just the same if it were the other side > of my town! I'd say follow your heart, if it's at all possible. that's a relief, I think my husband probably thinks I am Anne If you can swing the cost, I think you should go. You've been having a hard time for a long while--now you deserve to treat yourself. Leslie > I just got this link sent through, having read the schedule, I desire > passionately to attend, it totally fits in with my role as a lay member of > the maternity services liason comittee at our local hospital This might be a ridiculous thought, but since you are on the maternity services liason committee, would the hopsital be willing to foot part of the bill, you know, in order to have a "representative" of sorts there? It might be worth asking, and would take a bite out of the steep price tag. I would think the conference itself also might offer discounted admission for volunteers (which I assume you are). These are suggestions based on how I'd get into a pricey conference in my field, which is admittedly very different from your area of interest, but I thought I'd at least mention it. I always think it's amazing what one can do and get with persuasion and lobbying for ones cause! :-) -Carlye DD 9-29-04 Baby boy "Hale" EDD 6-2-06 They've got the A list group of speakers... Michel is outstanding. Ina May teaches well, but her philosophy has, um, shifted over the years and I have lost a lot of my respect for her. I take what she says with a grain of salt, but her underlying midwifery techniques are usually sound. Suzanne Arms is very energetic. I've not seen Sheila Kitzinger yet, but love her books. Price is a little steep but not out of what one might expect to pay for a professional conference. My experience (and I've been involved with a LOT of conferences) is that one rarely ever regrets a conference of this sort--they are invigorating, inspirational, and pack a whole lot of information into a very short period of time. Have you looked for funding? I don't know what your committee is, but sometimes groups will fund a member attending a conference. Jenrose |
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