Family Forum / Parenting / Spanking / December 2004

Tasers and Stun Guns have actually been under
a bit of scrutiny in recent months because
of the percentage of deaths caused by them, in ADULTS.

That a company lobbyist would defend their use
against a 6 year old boy is REALLY INTERESTING!!

I doubt the Taser manufacturer's association stats
have much data for use on 53 pount 6 year olds and
if they DO, I'd find THAT rather ...INTERESTING.

This guy really DOES look like a schill for the "product".

Safety?   Reminds me about rubber bullets... that kill people.   No, there
have been no study determining the safety of tasers on humans.  Animals
studies were mentioned.  All information regarding tasers to date, are
company sponsored.  But even apart from that.. electricuting a small child
is cruel and absusive. Go stick your thingy in a light socket, ok?

bobb

Jason, you keep mispelling their names. That's just because you are so
naive as to rely on facts, logic, and reason. I suffer the same
affliction.

The one you are replying to is spelled,
i..g..n...o...r...n...t...t...w...i...t.

The other is spelled, t...r...o...l...l...

Logic, facts, and reason are of no use in your exchange.

You and I can easily see (and I worked with emotionally disturbed
adolescents, and a few latency age kiddies) that a flailing, violently
acting out child is a serious risk to self and others, actually even a
three year old presents some dangers, should they get ahold of a sharp
object...that's why we supervise them and mommie moves the knives back
out of reach on the kitchen counter.

These twits, given their agendas, care nothing for the actual danger
involved, as long as they can bait and babble. Troll, and rant.

They hope you'll leave in disgust..as the troll gets points, and the
idiot feels less threatened.

I invite you to stick around and get familiar. And lend some more
sanity to this ng. It actually does manage to help some people some of
the time, when we few can cut through the static of the many.

But debate them? R R R R R R  (say it outloud...think cartoon
character and spinach.)

Kane

On 17 Nov 2004 17:10:30 -0800, Greegor@hotmail.com (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

Nope...no such event has happened. They are under scrutiny because
deaths have occured WHILE they were being used, but the question of
"cause" has not been resolved...and so far no cases have shown the
taser to be the direct cause.

Well, who else would have the knowledge?

Let me aquaint you with the ignorance factor. I've seen it so many
years in firearms, for instance. The "assault weapon ban" was enacted
against a class of firearms that were operationally exactly the same
as both handguns, rifles, and shotguns that fire by using one trigger
pull per shot.

The guns banned looked like, that is cosmetically appeared like, true
assualt weapons, which are usually shorter than legally allowed
already, and fire on selectively either single round per pull, burst
of three or four, or full auto where with one finger pull holding the
trigger back the arm will fire until the magazine is empty of rounds.

In other words, the "assualt weapons ban" was a total bogus agenda
driven..the Brady bunch, piece of nonsense. I could go to the nearest
gun store, or buy from my neighbor, a weapon that would DO exactly the
same thing, but looked like a hunting arm.

You seem to notice one branch of government f.cking up, how come not
others?

Or are you selective rather than objective?

I can see this "taser" media babble starting in the same direction.
Many of the articles start off with, "stun guns are under
scrutiny...etc." and go on to discuss "tasers" assuming they are "stun
guns."

Tasers are not stun guns. Stun guns are a particular breed of stunning
device, hand held, applied directly..not fired. They are poorly names,
just as taking a pure military nomanclature and trying to apply it to
lookieloos in firearms mislead the public into accept a ban
on....basically nothing.

Tasers are airborn projectiles, two each, carrying light wire trailing
behind, that after they hit a charge is sent down one wires to the
targe and returned through the other.

The charge passes from one electrode contact...barb...to the other. It
is possible, of one falls to the ground and one is imbedded in the
target, to make ground and send a charge that is effective, but if
both miss...no charge, no shock.

The amperage is extremely low in both taser and stun gun. About the
level of some flashlight batteries. And voltage is not a killer with
out the pressure, amperage, to push it through the target at a high
enough "speed" to cause injury. Nothing can increase the amperage.

By the way, I have used the agricultural equivalent of the "stun gun"
called a cattle or stock prod. I HAVE killed pigs while moving them
using a stock prod.

But not because of what the stun did..but rather because they were in
shock already by being moved out of their customary surroundings (pigs
are very heart attack prone if even lightly stressed, and in fact are
a favorite experimental animal in that field of research).

I moved, according to the farm owner, just over 20,000 pigs a year for
him in my trucks. I had five die, in the worst year...and that death
always later in the truck, that could not go to the slaughter floor.
None died of electric shock. They died of heart failure from stress.
Pigs are like that, but many more used to die when short clubs were
used to drive them into and out of the trucks.

My only concern with the use of tasers is on compromized persons...but
they would likely suffer more deaths with physical contact as police
must use to subdue a dangerous acting out person, and surely a gun is
more dangerous.

Just like the pigs. In those cases where police must use force to
protect themselves, the perp and others, of all the force they are
allowed to use, I prefer the Taser. I'd rather be hit with one than
with a baton any day. And it would be safer for the cop too, if I were
out of control. I get like that after a day of posting to
you...mirthful madness...laughing so hard it could frighten someone
unfamiliar with you and the twitsquad.

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your brutality toward children.

One article questioning the risk potential points out that out of
47,000 actual uses of taser there have been 60 deaths.

That would be a risk factor of 1.6%. And that of course counts every
time its actually used and fired successfully at a perp.

I doubt that everytime a gun is fired at and hits a perp you have a
risk factor that low. In fact I doubt that uses of batons, mace, and
other force is that low.

Nothing will be totally risk free in such situations, not even walking
away...as the perp can still do damage to self and others.

And
"
Taser says more than 100,000 people, including many police officers,
have been voluntarily zapped with the stun guns.
"
Which I don't doubt. Many of the cops in my nearest town and sheriffs
officers have been tased.

They tend not to put their lives at risk to prove the efficacy of
their tools. Not at the rate of 100,000 of them.

We all are shills for what we believe. You for instance.

greegor, you haven't read enough. Nor do you apply reason and logic.
Everything is filtered through your need to make someone as wrong or
more wrong than you to deflect attention, even your own, from what an
ugly vicious person you are.

Taking logic and reason to this issue, shows clearly, that while there
might be a very low risk, it is far less than any other force weapon
in play in the real world of law enforcement.

The boy's life was saved, as was the drunk girl trying to run out into
traffic. I've seen a girl run into the road and get hit...pick up
truck....he managed to hit the brakes in time and just scooted her
along the ground with his bumper, but I could see that wheel trying to
climb up her side....she slid really well, thank goodness..just
bruised. I wish still someone had tased her before she ran into the
street..probably about 12 years old too.

How do you live with such babbling ignorant ranting as you do? I hope
you come back in 20 years and reread yourself, assuming you eventually
mature..which isn't likely.

You'll be so embarrassed. And I won't be around to apologise to for
putting up with and educating you. tsk.

Kane

are

show

use

so

proof

People have died during the use of them. Conclusive evidence on some
have shown NOT connection to the electrical charge. All others
examined are inconclusive at this point.

The trick here is to understand risk management. Factoring risk is a
very interesting piece of business. One of the ways is to gather
historical data.

Use comparisons.

I have seen the numbers on deaths and deployments related to use of
taser.

About 147,000 times the taser has been used, hit it's target and
presumably did as required, immobilized the subject.

100,000 of those were police officer volunteers. Some even worked
themselves up to an attack state of mind and action to better test the
tool. The number that were killed, or died in the testing? Zero.

Among the 47,000 it is recorded that 60 deaths occurred. Less than our
fingers on one hand have been shown by autopsy to have died as a
direct result of the experience, and STILL those lack conclusive
evidence it was the taser and other actions wouldn't have produced the
same outcome.

I know of instances when nothing more than prone binding, cuffs,
restraint killed the victim. A mentally ill man in Portland Oregon
about three or four years ago was taken down by police outdoors, and
ankle and wrist cuffed. Normally the person would be perfectly safe.
This man was large and he lay and did not move from a position that
compressed his chest. He died in minutes as the cops were waiting for
the situation to cool down and while engaged trying to keep the crowd
and the family back. Had they been left to do their jobs without
a.sholes like we have in this ng that think they know it all, they
would likely have noticed his distress.

They DID apply CPS..too late.

Other restrain deaths have occurred, but a 1.5% death rate under field
condition stresses.... as in the 47% sounds like better odds than
baton or mace or even grappling and holding in restraint. Maybe I'll
research it.

If you add the other 100,000 and do the figures it is infinitesimal as
to risk management.

The alternative usually with police interventions don't leave much
room for just walking away...as this obviously emotionally disturbed
boy (I've worked with them) was in very serious risk of harm or death
at his own hand.

He had already cut himself and that did not stop him from doing it
again, deliberately.

That is a huge red flag.

Most people that cut themselves, even intended suicides, will often
drop the cutting instrument with the first pain. Most cuts are very
painful indeed, unless one is mentally disturbed and the nervous
system is not working normally.

One of the things that has not been brought up here is the possibility
of drug involvement. School grounds are not devoid of access to drugs,
last I heard. And kids will "share."

Additionally, a child newly introduced to psychotropics can be out of
synch during the process. He may have been over or underdosed or the
wrong meds for Tx may have been Rx'd.

The charming thing about the idiots and the purposefully decietful
here is that they have tons of media stories to fall back on when data
and facts run against them.

Rarely is there enough information in news media to have a sense of
what really happened. One can count on it being sensationalized. The
source has reader and viewership considerations to attend, and
sponsors to get money from by the increase in those numbers.

One sometimes learns months, or even years, later what actually went
down..and it's rarer what was actually going on.

There is a fifteen year old case in Oregon that is just hitting the
wire I hear. Someone stabbed and killed the director of corrections
back then, a Michael Franke. It was laid off on a small time drug
dealer who is serving time for it.

Convicted on weak evidence.  

But, what do we find 15 years later....some very compeling evidence to
reopen the case with some possible fraud or corruption in the
department of corrections being looked at...that Franke may have been
about to expose, and so strong is that evidence that a possible perp
is being publically named by the media.

http://www.wweek.com/storyforum.php?story=5548

Strange doins'. And similar things happen here. Some of us watch the
news long term to point out that what the doofi here claimed last year
or last month is not true, now. It changed by finding more
information.

Enjoy.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Kane

There a very few areas of the body that will cause one to bleed to death...
including severing an artery.  The idea that a six years old would have the
strength or height to reach to inflict such and injury is beyond
comprehension.

That is not a good enough reason. You seem to forget that the moment the
person is struck with a taser involuntary muscle contractions are quite
violent and the person falls to the floors.   The odds of the child being
hurt during that immediate moment are quite high.

Tackle a six year old?  How about just reaching out hand grab the hand
holding the glass?

Please don't make excuses for enept cops or adults who see the need to blast
a six year old into unconciousnesss followed by fits of vomiting.

How many of you object to spanking while ok-ing tasers?

Ya gotta laugh at the logic stream.

bobb