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Family Forum / Parenting / Spanking / November 2004Don'tchajustloveit when someone not there has all the answers?
Note what the police said, and one of them was actually there, live and in color. Note the judge giving his opinion, later from a distance. Had the judge been there his opinion might have carried a bit more weight. http://www.wftv.com/news/3913217/detail.html WFTV.com Police Taser 6-Year-Old Boy At Elementary School POSTED: 6:51 AM EST November 12, 2004 UPDATED: 6:15 PM EST November 12, 2004 MIAMI -- A 6-year-old boy was subdued with a Taser while wielding a piece of glass and threatening to hurt himself in the principal's office, officials said Thursday. The boy, who was not identified, was shocked by police with 50,000 volts of electric current on Oct. 20 at Kelsey Pharr Elementary School. Principal Maria Mason called 911 after the child broke a picture frame in her office and waved the piece of glass, holding a security guard back. When two Miami-Dade County police officers and a school officer arrived, the boy had already cut himself under his eye and on his hand. The officers talked to the boy without success. When he cut his own leg, one officer shocked him with a Taser, then another grabbed him to prevent him from falling, police said. He was treated by Miami-Dade Fire-Rescue and taken to Jackson Memorial Hospital, where he was committed for psychiatric evaluation. "By using the Taser, we were able to stop the situation, stop him from hurting himself," police spokesman Juan DelCastillo told The Miami Herald. "Sure he could have been tackled and maybe injured, maybe his arm broken or maybe that glass could have cut him in a critical area." Retired Juvenile Judge Frank Orlando called the incident "ridiculous." "It just sounds excessive to me to Taser gun a 6-year-old when everyone else around there were adults," said Orlando, who now runs a law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." IMO, until we change the punishment and revenge mentality of this country, incidents such as the one described below will continue to happen. A group of adults, including police officers, cannot subdue a little 6 year old child without shocking him with 50,000 volts of electricity? How appalling. But then again, there are people who believe they cannot parent a child without corporal punishment. Why are people in this country so afraid of little children? LaVonne > Note what the police said, and one of them was actually there, live > and in color. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They > couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." >IMO, until we change the punishment and revenge mentality of this >country, incidents such as the one described below will continue to happen. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >LaVonne I disagree, LaVonne. I've worked with disturbed children, mostly teens but I have on occasion helped with out of control 6 year olds. One that has a piece of glass in their hand, has attacked with it, as this boy did...he held off a security guard, and more seriously, already cut himself, has to be subdued. Any other course of action would not only risk others..but himself as well. I watched, as a brand new employee in a mental health treatment center for teens, the staff let a boy of about 13, act out his rage and frustration...he broke out a heavy bevelled plate glass window from a door, and began pitching pieces as big as a foot across down the length of a the resident living room at boys and staff. I decided, because I had training from military sources in restraining, that I'd drop my first day "observer only" order and I took him down...I would have rather waited for cops but he was beginning to escalate to moving forward to more accurately engage his targets. Had he been restrained the moment he picked up that skateboard and hit the window fewer injuries would have resulted. He was just a tad under six foot and weighed about 220, having about 20 lbs on me. I do wish the staff had have been more agressive...and had I had a Taser, trust me I would have used it at the door when the window came out. A six year old, very possibly not having passed through the cause and effect abstract reasoning phase as yet, deserves the safest physical restraint on his own behalf...he had already cut himself and was working on his leg...go back to anatomy class and think about that...when Tased. And 50,000 volts doesn't mean a thing. It's the amperage that kills, and that is extremely low in this non-lethal tool. My concern was for the child...and apparently that was true for the cops as well. Notice they didn't just nail him...the obviously tried to do something else......until he began to cut on himself again. By the way...my first day on a latency age ward I got hit in the crotch with a chair by a kid about 8. I didn't tase him but I certainly restrained him before he could do more damage to me or the children he was attacking, or possibly to himself. Physical restraint is often much more dangerous than use of a Taser. There have been, in all the uses of a tazer, no deaths directly attributed to the charge. I know of many physical restraint instances that ended in the death of the restrained. It's an extremely serious issue in mental health facilities: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22physical+restraint%22+fatality+death&btn G=Google+Search http://tinyurl.com/4y68j I was the principle player in stopping the use of disciplinary restraints in the facility I worked in..it did NOT make me popular with some staff, but at the same time I was a strong advocate for physical restraint when any party was endangered by the actions of the child. I had caught staff putting their full body weight on prone children using their knees on the child's back...very dangerous. This led to me being the staff trainer in non-restraint discipline methods...how to deescalate, and episode early intervention, reading the body language and voice for escalating situations, etc. We were also then trained by police instructors in safe takedowns and restraints for actual dangerous situations. Just as it should have been. Prior to that time there had been many child injuries from "discipline" restraints. Rethink this one. It just looks outrageous, but the use of, shudder, "50,000 VOLTS." You can play with that amount easily if you have low enough resistance (resistance is what burns yah up..as in light bulb filaments), and very low amperage. As an aside; neither police officers, or teachers, are required by their professions to put their lives at risk, though they chose too quite often. Note....not a single person got injured in this, beyond the boy's injury to himself. Try to imagine holding a six year old with his flailing arms even without a piece of broken glass in his fist. Thanks. Kane >> Note what the police said, and one of them was actually there, live >> and in color. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They >> couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." >>A group of adults, including police officers, cannot subdue a little 6 >>year old child without shocking him with 50,000 volts of electricity? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cut himself, has to be subdued. Any other course of action would not > only risk others..but himself as well. I too have worked extensively with children, but rather than the majority of my experience being with teens it has been in young children, especially children under the age of seven. Of course an out of control 6 year old needs to be subdued, but with the number of adults present in this situation, this could have been accomplished without electric shock. I experienced stitches from a severely disturbed four year old before I could reach him and hold him. I had no other adults to help me and seven other children were present. While stitches in my scalp weren't particularly pleasant, this injury was not life threatening to me, and I was able to subdue the child without hitting/hurting him or exposing him to a potentially lethal electric shock. > I watched, as a brand new employee in a mental health treatment center > for teens, the staff let a boy of about 13, act out his rage and > frustration...he broke out a heavy bevelled plate glass window from a > door, and began pitching pieces as big as a foot across down the > length of a the resident living room at boys and staff. A mentally disturbed child approximately 13 years of age with a brand new employee in a mental health treatment center is a very different situation that a mentally disturbed 6 year old surrounded with adults and police officers. > I decided, because I had training from military sources in > restraining, that I'd drop my first day "observer only" order and I > took him down...I would have rather waited for cops but he was > beginning to escalate to moving forward to more accurately engage his > targets. I'm not sure what you mean by and "observer only" order. Do you mean that you were responsibilities included observing only, while a child acts out in rage and mental illness and puts himself and others in danger? This is not at all what I meant in my post. I don't believe in being an "observer only" when working with little children either. > Had he been restrained the moment he picked up that skateboard and hit > the window fewer injuries would have resulted. He was just a tad under > six foot and weighed about 220, having about 20 lbs on me. I do wish > the staff had have been more agressive...and had I had a Taser, trust > me I would have used it at the door when the window came out. I understand, Kane, and perhaps my post wasn't very clear. I was referring to a 6 year old surrounded by adults and police officers. This was a very different situation. I weigh 105 pounds and am 5'4" tall. Even 6 year olds are smaller than I am, and this 6 year old was surrounded by adults and police officers, undoubtedly must larger. I know how to move in and restrain an out of control six year old without Tasters. > A six year old, very possibly not having passed through the cause and > effect abstract reasoning phase as yet, deserves the safest physical > restraint on his own behalf...he had already cut himself and was > working on his leg...go back to anatomy class and think about > that...when Tased. Your example included a 6' 200 lb. adolescent. I agree with your above statement for you recognize the difference in reasoning between a 6 year old and a 13 year old. It is also important to remember the difference in physical size. All children deserve the "safest physical restraint on his own behalf" but what is safe and perhaps necessary for a 200 pound youth is not necessarily safe or necessary for a 6 year old. > And 50,000 volts doesn't mean a thing. It's the amperage that kills, > and that is extremely low in this non-lethal tool. It can be lethal, Kane, depending upon the child. Six year olds are very small people. > My concern was for the child...and apparently that was true for the > cops as well. Notice they didn't just nail him...the obviously tried > to do something else......until he began to cut on himself again. I understand that, and I also recognize that your posts exhibit nothing but absolute safety and respect for children. I disagree with you, and that is okay. > By the way...my first day on a latency age ward I got hit in the > crotch with a chair by a kid about 8. I didn't tase him but I > certainly restrained him before he could do more damage to me or the > children he was attacking, or possibly to himself. I'm glad you did, and I believe in restraining. I know how to do it non punitively. This is one of the reasons that I object so strongly to Chris C.'s equating a ban on corporal punishment with reasonable restraint. I just don't view shocking a 6 year old as reasonable restraint. There are so many other safer ways. > Physical restraint is often much more dangerous than use of a Taser. > There have been, in all the uses of a tazer, no deaths directly > attributed to the charge. I know of many physical restraint instances > that ended in the death of the restrained. I know that, Kane, but it does depend on the definition of physical restraint, the age and developmental of the child, etc. > It's an extremely serious issue in mental health facilities: I know. My husband worked in a mental health facility for many years. > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22physical+restraint%22+fatality+death&btn G=Google+Search > http://tinyurl.com/4y68j [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > physical restraint when any party was endangered by the actions of the > child. I'm not disagreeing with physical restraint, Kane. I'm questioning the need for shocking a 6 year old when the child is surrounded by adults and police officers. Thank you, Kane. I hope the above post makes sense and clarify's my position. LaVonne > I had caught staff putting their full body weight on prone children > using their knees on the child's back...very dangerous. [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] >>>law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They >>>couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." >>>A group of adults, including police officers, cannot subdue a little 6 >>>year old child without shocking him with 50,000 volts of electricity? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >hitting/hurting him or exposing him to a potentially lethal electric >shock. How much distance was it from the cut on your head to that portion of your neck and face were the juglar vein and carotid artery flow? They are uniquely unequipped to handle a cut, lacking some of the valve closure capacities other veins and arteries have. That's why they spurt when cut, for such a very long time. Ever actually see one spurting? I have. Carotid. On a 200 pounder. Went about 12 feet or more, and went, and went, and went, until he was dead. Check out Bartleby's http://www.bartleby.com/107/168.html Read carefully. You were within just a few inches of almost certain death. Would you care to, after seeing that drawing and reading the description, try that again with another child? LEO's see the results of such events, the letting of blood, rather often. I presume they also take the requisite CPR/first aide courses and know some of the risks. I wish all who worked with children did. My guess is they were far more terrified for the child than afraid for themselves. A small child can bleed out about twice as fast as an adult from an arterial severing. They just don't have the volume, but they have a really nice strong pump, compared to an adult. >> I watched, as a brand new employee in a mental health treatment center >> for teens, the staff let a boy of about 13, act out his rage and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >situation that a mentally disturbed 6 year old surrounded with adults >and police officers. No, actually, in the heat of thrashing around I'd prefer the 13 year old. I know exactly what to do....hit him as hard as I can. I tackled that kid with all I had, and I was 200 lbs at the time. He went down like a brick chimney, but much faster. Just collapsed..exactly my intent. Took his legs out from under him. Little risk of a fatal blow. It's MUCH harder to do that with a small child. The urge to risk more might overcome my good judgement, and I well might, like you, get cut, but not be so lucky as to take a scalp cut as you did, that could be sewed up. >> I decided, because I had training from military sources in >> restraining, that I'd drop my first day "observer only" order and I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I'm not sure what you mean by and "observer only" order. It means I was not to do any treatment work my first few days. Like all new employees I was on "supervision," or as it's sometimes called, "probation." >Do you mean >that you were responsibilities included observing only, Yes. I was not to engage the children in any way. It was, as I said, my first day on the job. I was a jr. intern sorta. > while a child >acts out in rage and mental illness and puts himself and others in >danger? Well, my take is that no one that sent me to the unit to "observe" had the least idea this boy was going to blow out that day. I was, of course, trained in safety restraints, but of course as a brand new first day employee I was not assigned to do treatment work..and we weren't "ward clerks." We were therapeutic caseworkers. >This is not at all what I meant in my post. I don't believe in >being an "observer only" when working with little children either. I do, if it's the first day on the job and one is supposed to observe other workers as part of OJT. >> Had he been restrained the moment he picked up that skateboard and hit >> the window fewer injuries would have resulted. He was just a tad under [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >know how to move in and restrain an out of control six year old without >Tasters. No you don't. Not one with a shard of glass. You got cut. You are lucky to be alive. Much more lucky than you know apparently. http://www.bartleby.com/107/144.html On the subject of the carotid artery..you know, the ones that spurt out five or six feet, sometimes more, when cut and the ones that stubbornly resist compression to try and stop the bleeding. I used to butcher our livestock. It is standard to stick a pig's carotid, live, so they will bleed out completely with the heart pumping the blood. I've had people standing 15 ft away get hit with the blood stream. And a butcher hog is about the weight of a moderately large male adult. About 200 to 220 lbs. My size in fact. And the heart is very like a human's, as it the circulatory system..in fact they are a favorite lab animal for study of that system for that very reason. I could have cut that artery as quickly and easily with a piece of broken glass as I did with the knife. And we have nowhere near the fat covering and tough skin of a hog. Note what a google on [fatal carotid +wound +glass]produces at: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=fatal+carotid+%2Bwound+%2Bglass+ http://tinyurl.com/4ng5m EMT's are taught to deal with exactly what I describe..because they DO happen. And they can be and are fatal. The only reason we don't see more violent, and sometimes fatal, attacks with glass is that it's not often chosen. But it is as sharp as a knife, and often sharper, being freshly broken most of the time. You are very lucky. >> A six year old, very possibly not having passed through the cause and >> effect abstract reasoning phase as yet, deserves the safest physical [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >on his own behalf" but what is safe and perhaps necessary for a 200 >pound youth is not necessarily safe or necessary for a 6 year old. And unarmed 13 year old and an unarmed 6 year old are two very different people. Both with a piece of freshly broken glass in their hand are much more equal in risk to themselves and others. The little boy was, if I recall the article correctly, about to cut himself again...he already had cut himself twice, superficially. One under the eye, and the other I believe on his arm. Which prompts me to suggest we read it again...here it is, as Fern posted it at the top of the thread, and the story as I am responding to it..if the circumstances have changed I might change my opinion. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2896941 Nov. 11, 2004, 8:29PM MIAMI -- Police used a stun gun on a 6-year-old boy in his principal's office because he was wielding a piece of glass and threatening to hurt himself, officials said today. The boy, who was not identified, was shocked with 50,000 volts on Oct. 20 at Kelsey Pharr Elementary School. Principal Maria Mason called 911 after the child broke a picture frame in her office and waved a piece of glass, holding a security guard back. When two Miami-Dade County police officers and a school officer arrived, the boy had already cut himself under his eye and on his hand. The officers talked to the boy without success. When the boy cut his own leg, one officer shocked him with a Taser and another grabbed him to prevent him from falling, police said. He was treated and taken to a hospital, where he was committed for psychiatric evaluation. "By using the Taser, we were able to stop the situation, stop him from hurting himself," police spokesman Juan DelCastillo told The Miami Herald. The case was under review. ...........end........... Note he wasn't just wildly flailing...he was being deliberate. Aiming at others, and obviously himself. I was have, had I been either officer, tased him in a flash. I found three renditions of this story, all a bit longer, but from the same source. In one, I believe it said he was about to cut his leg. Know what the femoral artery is and it's location? I believe, outside the cardiac arteries, the biggest in the body. Finally, you forget the risk of infection from even a slight wound. Especially one with someone else's blood on it. This IS the era of HIV and AIDS, and hepatitis. >> And 50,000 volts doesn't mean a thing. It's the amperage that kills, >> and that is extremely low in this non-lethal tool. > >It can be lethal, Kane, depending upon the child. Six year olds are >very small people. We don't know the size of this child. I did a search. There were NOT fatalities every recorded directly related to the voltage used in a taser deployment. Any fatalities were the result of other conditions or actions that took place, a fall usually. That is why the officer caught the boy. http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/articles/85557/ Unless the boy had a heart problem as a precondition it is highly unlikely he could have had a heart attack. Why would you think the size of a person makes a difference in the lethal risk of electrocution? 50,000volts SOUNDS huge. It's not. It's just a big number. In fact the tiny numbers related to amperage might lead one to believe they couldn't possibly indicate something so dangerous. "Voltage is pressure, amperage is volume." From http://www.formtechservices.com/dstuff/bookstuf/p88electricity.html http://tinyurl.com/6rfj3 "When 1/2 amp or more flows across a vital organ in your body, such as the brain, heart, or lungs, immediate death is possible" Have you ever seen those pics of Nicola Telsa standing in thousands of volts of electricity shooting out of his finger tips. The pressure is not fatal...the volume is. Volts are pressure. Amps are volume. The current from a taser hit flows from one electrode to the other, typically only a few inches apart. The "pressure" that is voltage in a taser can't be higher than "Power Supply: AA Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries 1.2 Volts; AA Hi-Output Alkaline (Duracell Ultra) batteries 1.5 Volts" The pulse is under .25 of a second in duration. And the volume (amperage)is 0.162 - not enough to cause damage to the human body...no matter the voltage. That's 162 thousanths of an amp. And it take half of an amp to kill. That's why Tesla and others, could play with electricity without injury...high high voltages...but beware the little amp. http://www.taser.com/facts/qa.htm >> My concern was for the child...and apparently that was true for the >> cops as well. Notice they didn't just nail him...the obviously tried [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I'm glad you did, and I believe in restraining. I know how to do it non >punitively. Yep. >This is one of the reasons that I object so strongly to >Chris C.'s equating a ban on corporal punishment with reasonable >restraint. I just don't view shocking a 6 year old as reasonable >restraint. There are so many other safer ways. MMm...we'll have to disagree when it comes to the circumstances in the principal's office. After all, you did get cut. No one did with the little boy, once the officers were there and decided to act. >> Physical restraint is often much more dangerous than use of a Taser. >> There have been, in all the uses of a tazer, no deaths directly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I know that, Kane, but it does depend on the definition of physical >restraint, the age and developmental of the child, etc. It's always going to be a judgement call. A six year old is not a three year old. An brooding child is not a hysterical child who has already cut himself. >> It's an extremely serious issue in mental health facilities: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >need for shocking a 6 year old when the child is surrounded by adults >and police officers. AIDS, HIV, BLOOD, CUT, GLASS SHARD, VEINS, ARTERIES. You may wish to take the risk. I do not ask police officers, or school staff to take such risks. Life comes but once. >Thank you, Kane. I hope the above post makes sense and clarify's my >position. I get your meaning. >LaVonne Kane >> I had caught staff putting their full body weight on prone children >> using their knees on the child's back...very dangerous. [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] >>>>law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They >>>>couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." I find it very hypocritical of you two to be advocating violence of any sort to deal with children at any age. It isn't what you've been arguing for when opposing posters in this group from what I've seen of your archives.-Jim >>>>According to your prior definitions you have assaulted or supported assault on these children and appear to use the same arguments as those you oppose here... > >> On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:34:17 -0600, Carlson LaVonne > <carls017@umn.edu> [quoted text clipped - 503 lines] > >>>>law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They > >>>>couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid." Jim: Kane hypocritical for supporting the tasering? His "Commander McBrag" thing is even more endearing! He claims various credentials, none of which he has proven over the net, of course, and then proceeds to use those credentials to judge and diagnose, which would be unethical if he actually HAD credentials. His credentials seem to be nothing but an empty claim used as a huge slam/insult of any opponents. If, by some wild chance, he actually has the credentials he claims, he has some answering to do for his abuse of those credentials. "First, Do no harm." > I find it very hypocritical of you two to be advocating violence of > any sort to deal with children at any age. It isn't what you've been > arguing for when opposing posters in this group from what I've seen of > your archives.-Jim >Jim: >Kane hypocritical for supporting the tasering? Nope. Is is an far safer tactic than many a police officer can chose. >His "Commander McBrag" thing is even more endearing! I have never claimed to do a single thing I have not actually done, or described a single activity that has not actually happened. >He claims various credentials, none of which he >has proven over the net, There are those that recognize my expertise as genuine..for they work in the same or similar fields and know for themselves. One cannot hide one's profession from others intimately involved with it. How many times has Fern posted she has taught graduate social work students? LaVonne posts her full name, her place of employment, a university, and a list of the courses and responsiblities she has. Fern posts................well, fern posts.... >of course, and then proceeds >to use those credentials to judge and diagnose, You have me confused with Fern. It's Fern that brings up her credentials in an attemp to legitimize her judgement of others. I point directly to sources, just as reference books and data to back up my claims. My "credentials" are unrelated to my data offerings. I mention them only in the form of story telling ... to illustrate a point by something from my own professional experiences. Have you ever seen me post my "degree?" Or even claim I had one? Pre or post graduate? Nothing. You'll find nothing. Who in our circle of posters has proven their credentials online? And who has in fact attemted to use their credentialed "authority" to make claims? T'wert me lad. But you know who. And you know how has been proven wrong again and again....so much for graduate degrees. >which would be unethical if he actually HAD credentials. No, actually it wouldn't as long as I did not post my credentials and THEN do diagnosis and evaluation. That IS one reason I do not post such information. I do not rely on my "authority" imagined or factual..but on referencs I provide right here in the posts I offer to back my claims. For instance I posted from the DSM-IV and from professional websites when I discussed your narcissitic symptomology. It wasn't ME calling you a narcissist.. it was those with the authority and knowledge to do so. I simply quoted. >His credentials seem to be nothing but an empty >claim used as a huge slam/insult of any opponents. If you read me carefully enough and understand the english language you'll see I don't do that. ...well, I insult and slam those that deserve and need it, but I do not use my "credentials" to do so. I have used my experiences though, as all people do in these ngs...for intance I worked for a time with both mentally ill juveniles, some very dangerous and with adult CMI patients and with inmates in prison. I have compared what I heard and saw to the things you do and you claim to have done. Yer the model for little jail house lawyer..full of "knowledge" that on close examination turns out to be rabid sh.t...such as your understanding of the constitution and civil rights. >If, by some wild chance, he actually has the >credentials he claims, What credentials have I claimed to have, other than to have worked with the clients and patients I did? Is everyone that mentioned their work history then claiming certain credentials? If I said I repaired a car, would it follow I have a certificate from an automotive training school? >he has some answering >to do for his abuse of those credentials. Not if I don't post them. Or use the same in which I have them. I think some of your buddies might want to worry about that a bit more than I would need to. >"First, Do no harm." YOU? Posting THAT? You, from the most dangerous cabal in these newsgroups? People that have told others to do things that not only would risk their family integrety...lose their children...but even risk their very lives...and you have the balls to say, "First, do no harm?" R R R R R R Please, just to be fair, share with your reader and others who might be new here, your lovely little story, and put your "Motion" right out front. Give them your child training experiences with the little girl that wet herself and how you cured her of the habit...and how she got away from your tender educational methods. Go ahead, I dare you to show him your "Motion" to the court postings to this ng. You are chicken sh.t to do so because you KNOW what the instant reaction will be...well, right after the newbies get up off the floor and wipe away their tears of laughter. You are a joke, a dangerous, foul, sick little prick of a joke. I also note you attribute those that agree with you and strip out the attributes of those that don't. Any particular reason for this odd little habit? Tell us, from what industry did you take your sabbatical..the one that is at 3 years 9 months and running now? Kane >> I find it very hypocritical of you two to be advocating violence of >> any sort to deal with children at any age. It isn't what you've been >> arguing for when opposing posters in this group from what I've seen of >> your archives.-Jim Every police officer in the US, every fire fighter and every EMT has a large supply of latex gloves in his kit. Heck, even toll collectors routinely wear latex gloves taking tolls. And they often wear them. That is, LEOs do. Now, there's a good idea from Fern. Latex gloves should be a part of every EMT and fire fighter kit. Thanks, Fern, I'll bet no one realized this before (grin). I'll let EMT's and my fire fighters read your post. After all, I've already sent many of your earlier posts to my police precinct! LaVonne > Every police officer in the US, every fire fighter and every EMT has a large > supply of latex gloves in his kit. > > Heck, even toll collectors routinely wear latex gloves taking tolls. > > And they often wear them. That is, LEOs do. |
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