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Family Forum / Parenting / Spanking / November 2005No-spank policy smacks of failure
Five years ago, 2/3 of parents in Britain thought student behavior had gotten worse since corporal punishment was banned in the mid-1980s. Last summer, concerns over bullying via cell phones prompted official demands that all British schools institute anti-bullying policies. There have also been calls to ban pencil boxes, hooded sweatshirts, and anything else that one student can use to torment another. Only a couple of weeks ago, a former Member of Parliament complained about a video game in which players use their on-screen persona to kick and punch peers in a school environment. More recently, a 15-year-old British schoolgirl was physically attacked by peers after receiving 2 awards for academic excellence. The attack left the victim with various facial scratches and bruises in addition to a bloody nose, a split eyelid, and a black eye. After the mid-morning attack, the victim spent the rest of the day in the hospital. Only 1 of the attackers was punished - with a week's vacation from school! School officials claim they acted appropriately. The mother of the victim is livid. Welcome to the wonderful world of no-spank. It is a world in which bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop them. The occasional serious incident in a school is quite likely the result of the abolition of corporal punishment, but the more important point is that when CP was abolished, the standard of behaviour in schools fell to a level where many competent teachers have quit. Standards of achievement in schools have fallen to the point where about half the children in Scotland cannot read or count -- one can hardly call what they do in schools mathematics -- to 'Grade D' standard, the bare minimum. See The Sunday Times Scotland 13/11/05. This is a decline in educational standards serious enough to threaten European civilisation itself: how can a nation be cultured if its citizens are nearly illiterate? There are several reasons for this decline, notably the torrent of cheap American rubbish on television, but the absence of discipline in schools is in part due to the abolition of the cane and the strap. Would the kids shout and disrupt the class constantly if they knew they might be caned? I doubt it. Jennie No one has yet gone broke underestimating the bad taste of the American public. From automobiles to television, Americans are probably the greatest purveyors of junk in the history of the world. Even the current American president is junk. > The occasional serious incident in a school is quite likely the result > of the abolition of corporal punishment, but the more important point [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jennie > The occasional serious incident in a school is quite likely the result > of the abolition of corporal punishment, but the more important point > is that when CP was abolished, the standard of behaviour in schools > fell to a level where many competent teachers have quit. No, many abusive underachievers quite because they could not understand methods that didn't use intimidation and fear. And you are entirely wrong. > Standards of > achievement in schools have fallen to the point where about half the > children in Scotland cannot read or count -- one can hardly call what > they do in schools mathematics -- to 'Grade D' standard, the bare > minimum. See The Sunday Times Scotland 13/11/05. Sorry about Scotland. Here we have seen states with CP at the lower rungs of academic achievement, and the behavioral problems much worse in states the use the paddle on students. > This is a decline in educational standards serious enough to threaten > European civilisation itself: how can a nation be cultured if its > citizens are nearly illiterate? You have a problem in Scotland. It's not one based on the failure to switch or otherwise bea children. > There are several reasons for this > decline, notably the torrent of cheap American rubbish on television, Likely chosen by a lot of people now in authority that were routinely birched back when they went to school before the law stopped it. > but the absence of discipline in schools is in part due to the > abolition of the cane and the strap. Would the kids shout and disrupt > the class constantly if they knew they might be caned? I doubt it. No, they'd find other ways. As they alway do. Your "civilization," presuming you consider yourself a Brit, has created a world of pain and agony for billions over the past two centuries and beyond. The quicker you sink into the oblivion you so richly deserve for the scourging of the planet your civilization has been responsible for, the better. > Jennie Kane The latest figure (reported in Scotland on Sunday today, 20/11/05) shows that 36 teachers were deliberately injured by pupils in the last twelve months, seriously enough to need treatment in hospital. Such incidents were pretty well unknown before CP was abolished in schools (and yes, I was caned at school). Jennie > The latest figure (reported in Scotland on Sunday today, 20/11/05) > shows that 36 teachers were deliberately injured by pupils in the last > twelve months, seriously enough to need treatment in hospital. Such > incidents were pretty well unknown before CP was abolished in schools > (and yes, I was caned at school). No, that is a lie, Jennie. Such incidents happened before. And if the ONLY way you can reduce such incidents is by hitting kids, don't you think that one then exhibit a lack of knowledge and skill concerning the raising of children? Millions of people raise children without hitting them. Perfectly normal children. Did you, by the way, bother to work out the numbers? In a nation that STILL just as the US, allows, even where child are NOT paddled, parents to still inflict corporal punishment on their children, the percentage of teachers in Scotland that are attacked as you say, 36, is .07% out of the total of teachers, over 57,000. In other words, it is very likely that those children were ALL spanked and or worse, by their parents. Where else have they to express their rage at being so treated but against someone that is legally bound not to hit them, or, as is bound to happen, their own children when they grow up, as well as smaller children around them they bully? You can't simply ignore the other variables related to the issue, like parents still using CP, and contend that they children are violent because the schools don't paddle. I grew up where schools paddled, and I KNOW what the outcome is. And it's exactly as I have. There have always been violent children, Jennie, and the ones I knew were the ones paddled at home, though terrified of the teachers they STILL found ways to get back, usually by bullying others. Your logic is entirely lacking. One of, I've noticed, disability in folks that have experienced untreated trauma in their lives. I believe they tend toward sneakiness and dishonesty as well. I read that article you casually but carefully without link and without mentioning what the article itself pointed out and I bothered to do the math on. That that's an extraordinarily small percentage of the total. http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=2271282005 Please note: Either your browser does not comply with current Web Standards or it has been unable to load the stylesheet that accompanies this page. [Accessibility statement] [Skip to navigation] Scotsman.com WebsitesNewsSportBusinessThe ScotsmanScotland on SundayEdinburgh Evening NewsDatingJobsMotorsPropertyTravelBusiness FinderMember CentreWeb FeedsMedia PackSite HelpDigital Archive 1817-1950Photo GalleryReader HolidaysScotsman CalendarMoneyFantasy GolfHaggis HuntEdinburgh FestivalsEntertainmentHeritage & CultureLeisureWeatherWebcams Search | Site map Jobs | Property | Motors | Dating | Money * Email preferences * Edit your details * Log out Donald logged in Scotsman.com News Monday, 21st November 2005 Education Scotland on Sunday Sun 20 Nov 2005 Classroom attacks put 36 teachers in hospital MURDO MACLEOD POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AT LEAST 36 Scottish teachers were hospitalised by pupils last year, according to official figures which reveal the horrifying extent of classroom violence. Primary school children as well as secondary school pupils were involved in the attacks, in which teachers were punched, head-butted, hit by flying chairs or shoved so hard they hit desks or walls. The injuries ranged from cuts and bruises to lacerations needing stitches, broken arms and back injuries. Many victims had to take weeks off work. The revelation that an average of three Scots teachers a month need hospital treatment following classroom violence has enraged teaching unions and opposition politicians. Most authorities were unable or unwilling to disclose what sanctions, if any, had been taken against the culprits. In some cases, they were moved to other schools or suspended. But teachers complain that in many situations violent pupils are allowed to return to the same school. The trend is rapidly rising, according to our research. In Edinburgh, there were four attacks on teachers in 2000 and eight last year. Glasgow recorded three in 2001 and eight in 2004. A spokesman for the EIS, Scotland's biggest teaching union, said: "All the signs are that the problem is getting worse, not better, and urgent action is needed." SNP education spokeswoman Fiona Hyslop said: "These figures are deeply worrying, especially at a time when we are trying to recruit more young people into teaching." But the Scottish Executive said the figures did not mean that the nation's classrooms were descending into chaos. "It is important to remember that they only affect a tiny minority of the 51,287 teachers in Scotland," said an Executive spokeswoman. ... And the article offers a far more balanced view, in that it points out the lack of followup on the part of schools to deal with the offender. They fail to remove the child, the very least possible remedial action, as well as fail to assign the child reeducation. They also find themselves up against parents that defend the child and claim they are being falsely accused. I follow these and other matters in Scotland very closely. I have relatives there. It's plain you are an advocate of scottish schools taking up the cane and paddle again, and more articles in The Scotsman make the same point. In other words, just advocacy to try and return to the bad old days. Propaganda. It's also plain where they wish to go....back to what created the problem in the first place....children of the parents that were once subjected to being switched, smacked, paddled, caned in school. And you folks can't seem to make the connection. There are the children of the children. And nothing stops their parents from smacking them at home. Am I right, or am I right? Sneaking, lack of logic. Tsk. You were spanked. > Jennie Kane > The latest figure (reported in Scotland on Sunday today, 20/11/05) > shows that 36 teachers were deliberately injured by pupils in the last > twelve months, seriously enough to need treatment in hospital. Such > incidents were pretty well unknown before CP was abolished in schools > (and yes, I was caned at school). No, that is a lie, Jennie. Such incidents happened before. And if the ONLY way you can reduce such incidents is by hitting kids, don't you think that one then exhibit a lack of knowledge and skill concerning the raising of children? Millions of people raise children without hitting them. Perfectly normal children. Did you, by the way, bother to work out the numbers? In a nation that STILL just as the US, allows, even where child are NOT paddled, parents to still inflict corporal punishment on their children, the percentage of teachers in Scotland that are attacked as you say, 36, is .07% out of the total of teachers, over 57,000. In other words, it is very likely that those children were ALL spanked and or worse, by their parents. Where else have they to express their rage at being so treated but against someone that is legally bound not to hit them, or, as is bound to happen, their own children when they grow up, as well as smaller children around them they bully? You can't simply ignore the other variables related to the issue, like parents still using CP, and contend that they children are violent because the schools don't paddle. I grew up where schools paddled, and I KNOW what the outcome is. And it's exactly as I have. There have always been violent children, Jennie, and the ones I knew were the ones paddled at home, though terrified of the teachers they STILL found ways to get back, usually by bullying others. Your logic is entirely lacking. One of, I've noticed, disability in folks that have experienced untreated trauma in their lives. I believe they tend toward sneakiness and dishonesty as well. I read that article you casually but carefully without link and without mentioning what the article itself pointed out and I bothered to do the math on. That that's an extraordinarily small percentage of the total. http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=2271282005 Please note: Either your browser does not comply with current Web Standards or it has been unable to load the stylesheet that accompanies this page. [Accessibility statement] [Skip to navigation] Scotsman.com WebsitesNewsSportBusinessThe ScotsmanScotland on SundayEdinburgh Evening NewsDatingJobsMotorsPropertyTravelBusiness FinderMember CentreWeb FeedsMedia PackSite HelpDigital Archive 1817-1950Photo GalleryReader HolidaysScotsman CalendarMoneyFantasy GolfHaggis HuntEdinburgh FestivalsEntertainmentHeritage & CultureLeisureWeatherWebcams Search | Site map Jobs | Property | Motors | Dating | Money * Email preferences * Edit your details * Log out Donald logged in Scotsman.com News Monday, 21st November 2005 Education Scotland on Sunday Sun 20 Nov 2005 Classroom attacks put 36 teachers in hospital MURDO MACLEOD POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AT LEAST 36 Scottish teachers were hospitalised by pupils last year, according to official figures which reveal the horrifying extent of classroom violence. Primary school children as well as secondary school pupils were involved in the attacks, in which teachers were punched, head-butted, hit by flying chairs or shoved so hard they hit desks or walls. The injuries ranged from cuts and bruises to lacerations needing stitches, broken arms and back injuries. Many victims had to take weeks off work. The revelation that an average of three Scots teachers a month need hospital treatment following classroom violence has enraged teaching unions and opposition politicians. Most authorities were unable or unwilling to disclose what sanctions, if any, had been taken against the culprits. In some cases, they were moved to other schools or suspended. But teachers complain that in many situations violent pupils are allowed to return to the same school. The trend is rapidly rising, according to our research. In Edinburgh, there were four attacks on teachers in 2000 and eight last year. Glasgow recorded three in 2001 and eight in 2004. A spokesman for the EIS, Scotland's biggest teaching union, said: "All the signs are that the problem is getting worse, not better, and urgent action is needed." SNP education spokeswoman Fiona Hyslop said: "These figures are deeply worrying, especially at a time when we are trying to recruit more young people into teaching." But the Scottish Executive said the figures did not mean that the nation's classrooms were descending into chaos. "It is important to remember that they only affect a tiny minority of the 51,287 teachers in Scotland," said an Executive spokeswoman. ... And the article offers a far more balanced view, in that it points out the lack of followup on the part of schools to deal with the offender. They fail to remove the child, the very least possible remedial action, as well as fail to assign the child reeducation. They also find themselves up against parents that defend the child and claim they are being falsely accused. I follow these and other matters in Scotland very closely. I have relatives there. It's plain you are an advocate of scottish schools taking up the cane and paddle again, and more articles in The Scotsman make the same point. In other words, just advocacy to try and return to the bad old days. Propaganda. It's also plain where they wish to go....back to what created the problem in the first place....children of the parents that were once subjected to being switched, smacked, paddled, caned in school. And you folks can't seem to make the connection. They are the children of the children. And nothing stops their parents from smacking them at home. Am I right, or am I right? Sneaking, lack of logic. Tsk. You were spanked. > Jennie Kane > Five years ago, 2/3 of parents in Britain thought student behavior had > gotten worse since corporal punishment was banned in the mid-1980s. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop > them. And you can provide even the slightest of evidence that not paddling in public schools is the cause of this kind of behavior, and not other social conditions? Please proceed. The brits have a lot of history of brutality toward children ... that now resides in their adults population ... to get over. It's going to take a generation or two. The reason for banning the paddle resides in the evidence of history. The current crop of older adults where in fact strapped and paddled. We can see what they are like. 0:-> "Welcome to the wonderful world of no-spank. It is a world in which bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop them." Where is your evidence that the behavior you describe below is a result of banning corporal punishment in schools? Do you even know that the 15 year old who was victimized was victimized by adolescents that had not been spanked? For all you know, the perpetrators could have been children whose parents spanked (a well-established correlation between spanked children and aggressive behavior). The perpetrators could have been even further abused at home. You present no facts and no research, only one supposed opinion poll from the mid 1980's, which you say was conducted five years ago. What a hoot. This is 2005 and the supposed survey was conducted approximately 20 years ago. No wonder you call yourself "opinions." You have nothing but opinions, which you try to pass off as a universal fact. You can't even reference a survey correctly. You'd been a giggle when, in the face of scientific evidence, you continued to declare the earth to be flat, and you would have had ample survey evidence to support your "opinion." LaVonne > Five years ago, 2/3 of parents in Britain thought student behavior had > gotten worse since corporal punishment was banned in the mid-1980s. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop > them. And you are a PROVEN liar, LaVonne. ;-) Doan > "Welcome to the wonderful world of no-spank. It is a world in which > bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > bullies run rampant and school officials do little or nothing to stop > > them. It becomes tiresomely boring, though humorus, to continually, study after study, reveal the truth to the apolgists and compulsives. Here's yet another finding showing the pointlessness and damage of punitive physical punishment: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm Year after year you, I, others, have posted similar to this ng and the apologists and compulsives are so lost in their need to defend this savage outmoded practice they insist on lying about whether or not we have so posted. The desire to endlessly debate the same tired nonsense they are unable to get past smacks of the worst kind of cargo cult mentallity. Because spanking looks like it works, regardless of the real negative outcomes, they continue to pretend to themselves spanking has some real useful child rearing components. Sigh. " ... Source: Society for Research in Child Development Date: 2005-11-14 Spanking Leads To Child Aggression And Anxiety, Regardless Of Cultural Norm No matter what the cultural norm, children who are physically disciplined with spanking and other such approaches are more likely to be anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in other ways. This finding, published in the November/December journal Child Development, comes from surveys of parents and children in six different countries. ... " By the way, LaVonne, just thought I'd take this opportunity to thank you for the 60 to 80 times you have either posted reference or portions of and to various studies that pertained to outcomes and other related issues in the use of corporal punishment. Can't imagine how anyone, unless they were lying, would make claims you've not done so. It becomes tiresomely boring, though humorus, to continually, study after study, reveal the truth to the apolgists and compulsives. Here's yet another finding showing the pointlessness and damage of punitive physical punishment: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm Year after year you, I, others, have posted similar to this ng and the apologists and compulsives are so lost in their need to defend this savage outmoded practice they insist on lying about whether or not we have so posted. The desire to endlessly debate the same tired nonsense they are unable to get past smacks of the worst kind of cargo cult mentallity. Because spanking looks like it works, regardless of the real negative outcomes, they continue to pretend to themselves spanking has some real useful child rearing components. Sigh. Wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for the 60 to 80 posts you've provided over the years where you specifically cited studies on the subject, and more specifically discussed the reports findings outcomes in terms of anti social behavior issues. http://tinyurl.com/eytqj Don't you find it interesting that anyone would lie about something so obviously easy to prove otherwise? What happens to so many people when they are spanked as children that would lead them into such unethical behavior, or self delusion? Hard to imagine, if we didn't have so many horrible examples, such people coming into positions of power, authority, and decision making for the rest of us. Thank goodness they are gradually being replaced over time. Trying to debate the issues, including posting relevant and well constructed research and reports, with a few yapping small dogs around the edges of the discussion is quite interesting. Too bad there isn't a kennel for them. Apparently they are so accustomed to and expectant of being spanked they can't handle real debate, with or without the spanking. 0:-> You too are a giggle when you insist, in the teeth of common sense and all the experience that anyone has ever had, that children behave better when they are freely allowed to go on the rampage. Jennie Good point > You too are a giggle when you insist, in the teeth of common sense and > all the experience that anyone has ever had, that children behave > better when they are freely allowed to go on the rampage. > > Jennie > You too are a giggle when you insist, in the teeth of common sense and > all the experience that anyone has ever had, that children behave > better when they are freely allowed to go on the rampage. Presuming, since I believe LaVonne used "giggle" in her subject line, that you mean she advocates free allowace of chidren to go on the rampage and that helps them behave better. I've watched LaVonne post for a good many years, and have googled her posts back from as far as Usenet archives them. I must have missed something. In fact I am more prone to speak out against punishment methods than she, and I assure you I never let children run wild and go on rampages. Never happens. It's the children of punishing parents, among other proven failure methods that creates that desire in children. > Jennie I am sorry, and I'm reasonable certain LaVonne would be as well, that you are unable to think of all the very simple ways to direct, guide, coach, teach children that handles any tendency, easily, for them to go on "rampage." Your were rampagers where they, that you could only stop with corporal punishment? When mine had excess energy we had prescribed activities for them to engage in, as well as other methods of dealing with it than allowing them to rampage, or beating them into submission and calling it "spanking" and "discipline." Both phony ways to cover up incompetency with names that disguise what be assault if you tried it on any adult that didn't want to comply with you. 0:-> |
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