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Family Forum / Parenting / Spanking / April 2006Judgmental jerks
Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than are those in traditional white-collar jobs. Parents with the luxury of staying home or with surplus income are free to engage in alternative disciplinary strategies. It has been called flower arranging with children because of its time consuming nature and questionable results. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Poorer parents may not have surplus income childproof everything, cut the kid's allowance, or have an extra car to withhold the privilege of driving. The jobs they hold may grind them into dust by the end of the day. All too often, those given to telling everyone else how they must live their lives have too little to do and too much to do it with. Having never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. > Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic > status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than > are those in traditional white-collar jobs. The "crime" metaphor is apt, lil 'o' > Parents with the luxury of staying home or with surplus income are free > to engage in alternative disciplinary strategies. It has been called > flower arranging with children because of its time consuming nature and > questionable results. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Where has it been called that? > Poorer parents may not have surplus income childproof everything, cut > the kid's allowance, or have an extra car to withhold the privilege of > driving. The jobs they hold may grind them into dust by the end of the > day. It's just so much easier to spank, isn't it? > All too often, those given to telling everyone else how they must live > their lives have too little to do and too much to do it with. You've taken up posting a lot lately, lil 'o'. Out of work again? > Having > never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only > concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. Mmmm...and you've walked in non-spanker's shoes how long? It was just a few weeks, wasn't it lil 'o' and you hadn't the wit, the psychological balance, the patience, and the love for your children that non-spanking methods are based on...is that not correct, lil 'o'? 0:->  Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin >Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic >status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than >are those in traditional white-collar jobs. Yes, but white collar folks often bring their work home after the day is done. That's not usually true of blue collar folks. >Parents with the luxury of staying home or with surplus income are free >to engage in alternative disciplinary strategies. It has been called >flower arranging with children because of its time consuming nature and >questionable results. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. While it takes some planning (because you have to be proactive), positive discipline does not *have* to take more time if it starts when the child is born. Often the reason why it takes more time in the beginning is the fact that parents are learning the new strategy and have been using other strategies so the child may test more to see what will happen. >Poorer parents may not have surplus income childproof everything, Childproofing does not cost much money. >cut the kid's allowance, or have an extra car to withhold the privilege of >driving. Of course, positive discipline does not require that you have these things to withhold. >The jobs they hold may grind them into dust by the end of the >day. Yes, that's true. It's also true of some middle class parents with office jobs, btw. Mental and emotional stress can be as crushing as physical fatique. In fact, one advantage of a physical job is that you don't bring it home at the end of the day. Having done both, I think their are tradeoffs involved. >All too often, those given to telling everyone else how they must live >their lives have too little to do and too much to do it with. Having >never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only >concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. I grew up in a *blue collar* family that actually was ahead of its time in using positive discipline for the most part. My dad worked in a factory and after he was laid off, worked as a school janitor. My mom worked in the school cafeteria in her first job when my sister and I were young. She did have some education and eventually began working in the accounting department at a bank, but that was later. Still neither of them used spanking (my dad spanked me ONCE and realized it was not a good thing). The positive parenting involved doing things with us especially on the weekends and explaining things when we made mistakes. They would probably not have been comfortable with role playing, but they did read us books and talk to us about our emotions and other important things. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits There is a world of difference between making a personal choice of conscience and trying to impose that choice on others. The contrast between the positions often makes for great literature and interesting history. > >Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic > >status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > The Outer Limits >There is a world of difference between making a personal choice of >conscience and trying to impose that choice on others. The contrast >between the positions often makes for great literature and interesting >history. The point is that blue collar parents *can* use positive parenting and that some do and it works. The more parents we can persuade to use these techniques the less violent our society will become becaue the role model we present to children will be less violent in the first place. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone else. Worse, they know they can't. No-spank is a PREFERENCE, not a divine mandate to be imposed on mankind by quasi-religious extremists. > >There is a world of difference between making a personal choice of > >conscience and trying to impose that choice on others. The contrast [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > The Outer Limits > The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone > else. Your proof would be? > Worse, they know they can't. Yet we have. > No-spank is a PREFERENCE, not a > divine mandate to be imposed on mankind by quasi-religious extremists. Your hyperbole is duly noted as the grasping at straws it is. <chuckle> Oh, and lies. If any group has exhibited both a "religious" and "quasi-religious" support and extremism for spanking, it would be the supporters such as you. You dodge the science by declaring social science defunct. You dodge the facts from data collected by reputable sources that are not even ABOUT spanking, but penal systems, and social services. Thousand of children have died as a result of escalation FROM spanking to murderous beatings by the same person that gave them birth. Live with it, you poor soul. 0:-> >>> There is a world of difference between making a personal choice of >>> conscience and trying to impose that choice on others. The contrast [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> The Outer Limits Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin That is exactly what Dr. Baumrind found! "The 3 children (all girls) of parents who totally abstained from spanking at all time points, were not more competent by adolescence than those whose parents spanked occasionally. All were prosocial, but two were very low on self-assertiveness and the one who was self-assertive and achievement-oriented manifested severe internalizing and externalizing symptoms.)" Doan > The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > The Outer Limits > That is exactly what Dr. Baumrind found! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > achievement-oriented manifested severe internalizing and externalizing > symptoms.)" Was this from her earlier work identifying "authoritative parenting" (which the vast majority of non-spanking parents use) or was it from her deeply flawed Berkeley presentation that was never published for peer review? If it's missing those families that were more severe spankers, then it's deeply flawed statistically. 0:-> > Doan > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> >>> The Outer Limits Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin > > That is exactly what Dr. Baumrind found! > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If it's missing those families that were more severe spankers, then it's > deeply flawed statistically. Hahaha! You just pulled another "abreaction"! AF Kane wrote > If it's missing those families that were more > severe spankers, then it's deeply flawed statistically. Wouldn't your definition of "more severe spankers" differ from mine? :) > Kane wrote >> If it's missing those families that were more >> severe spankers, then it's deeply flawed statistically. > > Wouldn't your definition of "more severe spankers" > differ from mine? :) I can't say. But if you'd care to post yours I'll be happy to post mine. Then we can see the answer to your question. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin >> Kane wrote >>> If it's missing those families that were more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > 0:-> By the way, my definition and yours have no bearing on this issue. It's what the researcher removed that matters. Please read the study elements that have been shared in this ng and see if you have an intelligent question about IT, not you, not me, but the flawed study. Tell me why you think it's not flawed, if you think that. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin There is usually something quirky about never-spanked girls. If I were going to pick a word, I would say, "Fragile" often describes them. > That is exactly what Dr. Baumrind found! > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > > > > The Outer Limits >There is usually something quirky about never-spanked girls. If I were >going to pick a word, I would say, "Fragile" often describes them. LOL. I doubt it. Many of the women of strength and character I know have never been spanked. They are most certainly NOT fragile. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits > >There is usually something quirky about never-spanked girls. If I were > >going to pick a word, I would say, "Fragile" often describes them. > > LOL. I doubt it. Many of the women of strength and character I know > have never been spanked. They are most certainly NOT fragile. Does this include Mother Theresa of Calcutta? Doan Feminists always think themselves mentally tougher than men. It seems to be a necessary illusion. > >There is usually something quirky about never-spanked girls. If I were > >going to pick a word, I would say, "Fragile" often describes them. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The Outer Limits >Feminists always think themselves mentally tougher than men. It seems >to be a necessary illusion. This has nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with women who happen to be quite strong and have survived lots of tough situations on their own. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits Only feminists laugh about how tough they are. Real women with real problems are more circumspect. They struggle, rarely complain, and never boast. Though, they might savor a few victories every now and then. > >Feminists always think themselves mentally tougher than men. It seems > >to be a necessary illusion. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The Outer Limits > Only feminists laugh about how tough they are. Real women with real > problems are more circumspect. They struggle, rarely complain, and > never boast. Though, they might savor a few victories every now and > then. Years ago I was watching a TV special where in Masters and Johnson, the famous human sexual behavior researchers were on a panel. Mixed with men and women. I do not recall which women it was, but one, possibly Johnson (Master's wife) mentioned something about how men think....and Master's interrupted with a quiet statement aimed at both men and women. "Stop telling each other how the other works, and ask." You are being presumptuous in the extreme to tell "Real women" what they think or feel, or for that matter, how they act, unless you provide something other than your opinion to back that up. As with men, I see women NOT as a heterogeneous group all following the same path, but as highly diverse individuals that each devises their own life and reacts to it in unique ways. Not all feminists are the same. I know one, for instance, an author, that wrote a scathing book on the old feminist model. She herself is strong, both mentally, and physically...she boxes as an avocation. A tough but socially sensitive responsible person. And she does not spank her children, either. Your biases...no, prejudices, are embarrassing to witness. And that includes your rudeness barely disguised as polite discourse. 0:-> >>> Feminists always think themselves mentally tougher than men. It seems >>> to be a necessary illusion. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> The Outer Limits Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin >Only feminists laugh about how tough they are. Real women with real >problems are more circumspect. They struggle, rarely complain, and >never boast. Though, they might savor a few victories every now and >then. Who said the folks I am talking about boast or say anything about how tough they are? I said I know they have been through tough times and survived well on their own and that they have never been spanked. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits toto, His entire feminist crap is nothing more than bait. It serves to take attention away from the topic of the ng, which is disciplinary hitting of children (spanking). Who cares if he's sexist? I doubt that women are intimidated by his "opinions." I'm not, and it appears that neither are you. The problem is that he is anti-child, and will do anything to justify his "opinions" regarding his perceived right of parents to raise their hand, fist, shoe, strap, whip, or whatever else he can think of, and hit the body of a little child -- and call the practice discipline. LaVonne >>Only feminists laugh about how tough they are. Real women with real >>problems are more circumspect. They struggle, rarely complain, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The Outer Limits > The problem is that he is anti-child, and will do anything > to justify his "opinions" regarding his perceived right So far it sounded exactly like Kane. > of parents Suddenly it's not Kane > to raise their hand, fist, shoe, strap, whip, or whatever else > he can think of, and hit the body of a little child -- and > call the practice discipline. Demagoguery again, LaVonne! Still working very hard to equate ALL spanking with BEATING I see... Spanking with an open hand is legal all the way to Supreme Court. fist, shoe, strap etc. are not. The phrase "hit the body of a little child" is intended to evoke an emotional knee jerk from those naive enough to fall for it. You'll try anything won't you LaVonne! Where did "Opinions" support the old forms of spanking which are illegal? Why did you lump them in with the form that is legal in all 50 states? >> The problem is that he is anti-child, and will do anything >> to justify his "opinions" regarding his perceived right > > So far it sounded exactly like Kane. Would you please stop posting just like lil 'o'? Thanks. >> of parents > > Suddenly it's not Kane My goodness, for a moment there you appeared not to be lil 'o'! >> to raise their hand, fist, shoe, strap, whip, or whatever else >> he can think of, and hit the body of a little child -- and >> call the practice discipline. > > Demagoguery again, LaVonne! Now you are Doan? > Still working very hard > to equate ALL spanking with BEATING I see... No that's not what she did. People do exactly what she said and CALL IT DISCIPLINE. Or if you think not please show some evidence. How many people that injure or kill their children admit to beating them? BEFORE they are convicted of it. > Spanking with an open hand is legal all the way to Supreme Court. > fist, shoe, strap etc. are not. Sorry. You are wrong. I posted and others remarked about it a case of a city councilman that beat his boy with a belt hard enough to leave marks from the buckle. He got off on the very argument YOU are making, or so said the just. He had a legal right to physically discipline the child. > The phrase "hit the body of a little child" is > intended to evoke an emotional knee jerk > from those naive enough to fall for it. You are one to talk about using appeals to emotion, Greegor. And your master Doug, does it all the time. You don't seem to mind it when he does it. > You'll try anything won't you LaVonne! Have you read anything of lil 'o's lately? > Where did "Opinions" support the old forms of > spanking which are illegal? Where didn't he? > Why did you lump them in with the form > that is legal in all 50 states? Because they are legal. Paddling is using a board. Children are hit legally with straps. Your own Plant defended the use of objects (I believe it was straps, belts and coat hangers) on the children of church members. You seemed quite willing to maintain silence then, but suddenly you are speaking up now? You fail to notice the heavily emotionally loaded rantings of your little buddy 'o' You are inconsistent and immoral and unethical, and a liar, and a little thug yourself. You admitted to spanking your girlfriends child. What did you use? What;s the difference between what LaVonne is claiming and that old image of using a hairbrush on a child? It's a hard object and could do damage. Especially hitting in the vicinity of the base of the spine. Where did you hit the little girl? Even with your hand hitting a six year old child on the buttocks can do harm, both to body and psyche. But then you are a vicious thugs, as is Doan, and lil 'o' You have just been fooling yourselves. And one day the law will be watching you to see if you do it again. I look forward to it. It's coming. Just look at related events. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin I think Opinions is just a woman hater. Yep, he blames women fo everything that goes "wrong" in his version of reality. Maybe it's misplaced anger over how his own Mother Treated him. Mayb he craves the Love of a Mother. Perhaps He wants June Cleaver to b his Mommy Or Maybe his wife or girlfriend Left him and He's Bitter about it therefore all women are Evil unless they fit into his window o acceptable behavior. Perhaps he wants to marry a Proverbs Woman. Opinions Wrote: > Only feminists laugh about how tough they are. Real women with real > problems are more circumspect. They struggle, rarely complain, and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > The Outer Limit -- beccafromlalaland Did Wittle Becca Poo miss her nappy-bye time? The wittle dear sounds so gro-wumppy. > I think Opinions is just a woman hater. Yep, he blames women for > everything that goes "wrong" in his version of reality. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > The Outer Limits > Did Wittle Becca Poo miss her nappy-bye time? The wittle dear sounds > so gro-wumppy. Apparently she was right. How is it you address her directly and will not respond to my challenges, eh? Coward. Think she's weak because she's a women, coward? She's easily twice the human being you are. You are failed bitter old man with nothing to show for all your rejection of humanity but your hubris. You THINK you are hot sh.t, but you are cold runny diarrheas. I'd say she is very close to the mark. You are bitter. It pores from every post of yours. You are a loser and this is ALL you have. This place to dump your empty claims of superiority. Tell us, lil 'o', do you take any prescription drugs? Have you been to a doctor? Do you drive a car, diddle the keys on your computer? All science derived. You could not babble here, and you likely would not even be alive, were it not for science. Loser. 0:-> >> I think Opinions is just a woman hater. Yep, he blames women for >> everything that goes "wrong" in his version of reality. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>> >>> The Outer Limits Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Uh Oh...Guess I hit a nerve. Awww "O" you are reverting to baby talk...does that mean you DO want Mommy? Opinions Wrote: > Did Wittle Becca Poo miss her nappy-bye time? The wittle dear sounds > so gro-wumppy. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > -- > beccafromlalalan -- beccafromlalaland > Uh Oh...Guess I hit a nerve. > > Awww "O" you are reverting to baby talk...does that mean you DO want a > Mommy? <snicker> > Opinions Wrote: >> Did Wittle Becca Poo miss her nappy-bye time? The wittle dear sounds [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> -- >> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin No. You just write like a grumpy little kid who missed her nap time. No reason to treat you like an adult when your not one. > Uh Oh...Guess I hit a nerve. > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > -- > > beccafromlalaland > No. R R R ...sure she did, lil 'o' right ON the money. Your mother hated you, obviously, Obvious. > You just write like a grumpy little kid who missed her nap time. Well I looked at the post you refer to and I don't see any grumpiness. In fact, quite the opposite....humor at your sad predicament. > No reason to treat you like an adult when your not one. Aside from the childish grammar error, do you consider yourself an adult? Your development was arrested at about age 4 or five, maybe even three. They do grump so when they don't get their own way. R R R R R R R You are obviously picking up that becca isn't about to be sucked in by your doom and gloom games. She knows you are sick in the head, child, and she's being more than kind to you with just a bit of humor. I, on the other hand, recognize the danger people such as you present to society. I told you as observer and things have not changed, despite YOU believing you had observed long enough to start having opinion. Too bad about your mom treating you so badly. Some shrinks are pretty good with that problem. 0:-> >> Uh Oh...Guess I hit a nerve. >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>> -- >>> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin oh, my, the lesbo bitch thinks she's a f.cking english teacher...........she's smarter than everyone else.........she knows more than everyone else.............the worthless goddamn sack of sh.t is struggling to keep up with opinions........... ]:^< whines about grammatical errors >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone >else. Worse, they know they can't. No-spank is a PREFERENCE, not a >divine mandate to be imposed on mankind by quasi-religious extremists. While spanking may relieve a parent's frustration and stop misbehavior briefly, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (1995), researchers suggest that spanking may be the least effective discipline method. To test this hypothesis, researchers surveyed parents, with the assumption that if spanking worked, children who were spanked would learn to behave better over time so that they would need punishing less frequently (Leach, 1996). However, the results showed that families who start spanking before their children are a year old are just as likely to spank their 4-year-old children as often as families who do not start spanking until later. Thus, children appear not to be learning the lessons parents are trying to teach by spanking. Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children usually feel resentful, humiliated, and helpless after being spanked (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). The primary lesson they learn appears to be that they should try harder not to get caught. One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of spanking is that we have selective inattention. We simply do not remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe. Partly this is because our culture believes spanking is normal and partly because many of us were spanked as children. It is difficult for us as adults to relate our adult problems to childhood spanking or to condemn our parents. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits > >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > children appear not to be learning the lessons parents are trying to > teach by spanking. Now, replace that with non-cp alternatives. Would you think the outcome would be different? > Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative > behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children > usually feel resentful, humiliated, and helpless after being spanked > (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). The primary lesson they learn appears to be > that they should try harder not to get caught. "Power and Chapieski (1986) qualify their conclusion that physical punishment is an ineffective disciplinary strategy as follows, .It is important to note, however, that reliance on physical punishment, not physical punishment itself, was the critical variable. Preliminary analyses showed no significant differences between the occasional-punishment and no-punishment groups. (p.274)." By stigmatizing any use of spanking, professional consultants will discourage parents who rely on spanking from learning how to employ its conditional use instead. ie. that is to initially use spanking or another punishment in combination with reasoning primarily as a back-up for time-out or milder tactics, with spanking eventually phased out in favor of greater reliance on reasoning and negotiation." > One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of > spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > were spanked as children. It is difficult for us as adults to relate > our adult problems to childhood spanking or to condemn our parents. No. It's precisely because we have personally experienced it that we know the claims made by anti-spanking zealotS just aren't true in reality. Doan >>> The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a >>> consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > time-out or milder tactics, with spanking eventually phased out in favor > of greater reliance on reasoning and negotiation." If only we'd let bank robbers and murderers to rob and kill just a little as they went about seeking to rob and murder on a large scale.... R R R R Your logic is, to say the least, Droanatian. >> One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of >> spanking is that we have ?selective inattention.? We simply do not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > know the claims made by anti-spanking zealotS just aren't true in > reality. Mmmm...and you consider yourself the wonderful product of carefully applied spanking? Or are you just another self deluded survivor? I'd say by the quality of your lies you were yet another dismal failure of the spanking culture. Why take the chance of producing more like you? 0:-> > Doan Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin > >>> The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > >>> consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Your logic is, to say the least, Droanatian. Hihihi! Try using drugs instead. Your logic is...anti-spanking zealotS. ;-) > >> One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of > >> spanking is that we have ?selective inattention.? We simply do not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Mmmm...and you consider yourself the wonderful product of carefully > applied spanking? And you are a product of "never-spanke"??? > Or are you just another self deluded survivor? Yup! Me and about a few BILLIONS others! > I'd say by the quality of your lies you were yet another dismal failure > of the spanking culture. Have you looked up the "Hutterites"? ;-) > Why take the chance of producing more like you? Have you asked your mom what crap shot she took? ;-) AF >> >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a >> >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Now, replace that with non-cp alternatives. Would you think the outcome >would be different? Absolutely. Positive parenting works, ime. >> Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative >> behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >know the claims made by anti-spanking zealotS just aren't true in >reality. Except that those of us who work with many kids have seen exactly what the researchers have seen. >Doan -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits > >> >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > >> >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > Absolutely. Positive parenting works, ime. And the proof is??? > >> Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative > >> behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Except that those of us who work with many kids have seen exactly what > the researchers have seen. You only see what you wanted to see through layers and layers of selective glasses! Meanwhile, the world moves on. Doan That really is the flaw in the "scientific method" as applied to the social sciences. From selection of a problem for study to summation of results, selective filtering too often colors the thinking. In the end, the claims made by science on how people should live their lives involve an appeal to authority. That authority is the god known as "science." Parents are told to not trust their own experience, but to believe the experts, those de facto priests purporting to speak for the god of "science." > > >> >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > > >> >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Doan > That really is the flaw in the "scientific method" as applied to the > social sciences. From selection of a problem for study to summation of > results, selective filtering too often colors the thinking. You seem to miss the little habit of peer reviewing for publication. > In the > end, the claims made by science on how people should live their lives > involve an appeal to authority. If reason is authority, then yes. > That authority is the god known as > "science." Or critical reasoning, take your pick. They are the same. > Parents are told to not trust their own experience, We are all told that at times. Often with very good reasons. I have seen again and again people that knew better, each what they hoped were safe mushrooms, only to end up in the emergency room, and or dead. > but to > believe the experts, Want to go mushroom picking with me? Want someone other than scientists to provide the data for structural materials you live and work in? > those de facto priests purporting to speak for the > god of "science." How sad. And desperate you are. You are using a product of "science" to communicate. If you drive, the principles of science were used over and over to create that vehicle in concept and design. The same is true of office buildings, and the medications you are on. What would you use rather than science to create the same world you live in today...or would you be dead because you refused to rely on science? You folks are pitiful. 0:-> >>>>>> The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a >>>>>> consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >> Doan Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin One of the fastest ways to pave the road to failure is to try to impose a scheme that runs counter to the beliefs of the people. Politically, it is call "illegitimacy." More common folks usually call it "tyranny." As with spanking and no-spank alternatives, that religion we call "science" seems to conveniently forget when things don't workout as they're supposed to. What's the old joke about doctors being able to "bury" their mistakes? Not everyone has the "license" to do so. Science is always a product of its time. In time, life moves on whether the science of the day was right or wrong. Outside of Rome, the debate over a geocentric or heliocentric universe didn't make a whole lot of difference in the way most people lived their lives. Even today, nobody much thinks about whether the earth goes around the sun or vice versa. Ask somebody a century from now what they made on their SAT or GRE, and you'll probably get a very strange look in response. The debate over spanking will be no different. It came. It went. Life moved on with people doing as they had always done. > > >The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > > >consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Doan > One of the fastest ways to pave the road to failure is to try to impose > a scheme that runs counter to the beliefs of the people. Politically, > it is call "illegitimacy." > More common folks usually call it > "tyranny." Excuse me from interrupting your grumbling ruminations, but one of the most common terms Tyrants use to describe those that rebel, is "illegitimate." > As with spanking and no-spank alternatives, that religion we call > "science" seems to conveniently forget when things don't workout as > they're supposed to. Science and religion have little in common. If you look at the world, where science has been the more frequently chosen discipline for explaining and examining, and where religion has prevailed OVER science (third world countries come to mind) you will find prosperity on the one hand, and poverty, disease, short desperate lives, and misery. What to guess which is which? > What's the old joke about doctors being able to > "bury" their mistakes? Not everyone has the "license" to do so. It's not an old joke, just a saying. And it's a lie. Every patient who dies must have a report, often if unattended, a coroners report as to the cause of death. A hospitalized patient who dies triggers a committee that peer reviews the doctor's actions that attended that patient. And if they have unexplained or medically CAUSED deaths in too great a number certification standards can be broken. Know what happens to a hospital that loses it's certification? > Science is always a product of its time. We can certainly hope so. > In time, life moves on > whether the science of the day was right or wrong. Did you not read Dorothy's explanation of what science is? There is NO end point where any reputable scientist says, "the is the definitive, ultimate answer to this question." It's rarely a question of being right or wrong but more often, 'this is what we know so far.' > Outside of Rome, > the debate over a geocentric or heliocentric universe didn't make a > whole lot of difference in the way most people lived their lives. At the time (and we can't really be sure of that) but certainly for the future generations. Had we not made the discoveries related to the nature of the universe you and I would be sending smoke signals. > Even > today, nobody much thinks about whether the earth goes around the sun > or vice versa. What makes you think science requires constant thinking validation by each of us to be effective and useful? > Ask somebody a century from now what they made on their > SAT or GRE, and you'll probably get a very strange look in response. I wonder who many centagenarians will be around to ask? 0:-> Ask someone what they got last year though and you may be treated to a lot of conversation on the subject. > The debate over spanking will be no different. It came. It went. Life > moved on with people doing as they had always done. Yes, that's correct. The "debate over spanking" will go. And you see it going even now. The upsurge we see is the precursor to the change you are going to likely live just long enough to witness significantly. In fact, you have. How many nations had outlawed spanking when YOU were a child? How many public schools and districts had banned paddling of students when you were a child? If you take a count of each, and compare, you will be participating in the scientific method. What conclusion you draw will be then colored ONLY, if you are subjective in your conclusion, by YOU. Ask others, and you'll find that the difference is a powerful trend line toward more humane, and thankfully, successful strategies for parenting. It's sad to be left behind but when YOU went back to punishment and spanking with your children you gave up not only on them, but on yourself. Now you have cut yourself off from objective rational thinking. That's really sad. 0:-> >>>> The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a >>>> consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >> Doan Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Oh, my dear opinions, Spanking is a choice that parents in the US make, based on wanting the best possible outcome for their children. Some parents base the decision on knowledge that comes through learning. Some parents base the decisdion on formal education into how children best learn, grow, and develop. And, regardless of the formal education of the parents, all base their choice on a personal believe that children should be respected and taught, rather than hit. And yes, it's worth it." Respect is "worth it," and raising children that have the greatest likelihood of becoming reasonably happy and well adjusted members of societ is "worth it." That is why hitting children in the name of discipline is never worth the cost. Whether or not your prefer to hit your child when you discipline, the cost is never worth it, and it should not be a choice. LaVonne > The question is: Is it worth it? The fact remains that, on a > consistent basis, no-spanks cannot raise better children than everyone [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >>The Outer Limits My Dear Kanevonnie, Did it ever occur to you that it doesn't matter what you think? You've got your opinion. It's much like your nose. It sticks out where everyone can see it and, aside from a few eccentrics, no one much cares. You are in a pickle because I am reasonably articulate and impervious to personal slanders. That's something you're really not used to. You're not accustomed to being crossed. It shows. I am a firm believer in informed consent. That includes knowing who's generating the propaganda and why they do it. You don't like me because I know where the skeletons are buried in the no-spank closet. A feminist-dominated public education system to brainwash the children. A feminist-dominated child welfare Schutzstaffel to intimidate the parents. It's all there for the world to see if they know where to open the door. The fat-cat feminist bureaucracies are the Achilles' heel of the no-spank movement. This is not the 1960s. You are no longer on the cutting edge of anything. You are the relic. The world is moving on without you, swept up by tides and undercurrents of politics over which you have no control. Like the rest of us, you are along for the ride on this one. A mere passenger in the 21st century. Welcome aboard. Your humble guide, Opinions > My Dear Kanevonnie, > > Did it ever occur to you that it doesn't matter what you think? Nope. It matters what everyone thinks. Even the dim, such as you. And I'm Kane, by the way. > You've > got your opinion. Yep, and I look for concrete evidence I'm right. You babble. > It's much like your nose. It sticks out where > everyone can see it and, aside from a few eccentrics, no one much > cares. Says you. I care about what you think, and express, so that puts me one up on yah, dummy. And you seem to be responding to what MY opinion is, opinion. 0:-> > You are in a pickle because I am reasonably articulate and impervious > to personal slanders. You are impervious because you lack a conscience. > That's something you're really not used to. No, I've met many like you. I've worked in prisons and mental health settings. We see a lot of that there. > You're not accustomed to being crossed. It shows. Don't tell my wife. 0:-> You are desperately grasping at straws, lil 'o', just like always. > I am a firm believer in informed consent. That includes knowing who's > generating the propaganda and why they do it. Then you won't mind answering OUR challenges to your off the wall complaints and babbling accusations, and empty insinuations, will you? > You don't like me because I know where the skeletons are buried in the > no-spank closet. There are no skeletons. We speak right out with our beliefs, our knowledge, our intentions. Your goose, and a.s, is cooked, little boy. > A feminist-dominated public education system to > brainwash the children. Prove it. >A feminist-dominated child welfare > Schutzstaffel to intimidate the parents. Prove it. Go read John Gato like I told you to. The education system is STILL created and run by the same robber barons through their wills and trusts. In fact, many good teachers such as Gato, are doing their best to wrest it away from that Prussian model. I think they are winning, and one of the signs of it is the erosion of the "paddling culture" that predominated all too long. > It's all there for the world > to see if they know where to open the door. Then open it, stupid. Show us the minutes from their secret meetings. Show us they intend to take over the world for feminist non-spankers. > The fat-cat feminist > bureaucracies are the Achilles' heel of the no-spank movement. List them. Show the connections you claim You are a raving nutcase with nothing but innuendo and your spewing bs to offer so far. > This is not the 1960s. You are no longer on the cutting edge of > anything. You are the relic. The world is moving on without you, > swept up by tides and undercurrents of politics over which you have no > control. Really? Paddling is going UP in the US? Spanking is increasing? Non-punitive parenting methods are not being used more and more by parental choice? You are dreaming. > Like the rest of us, you are along for the ride on this one. > A mere passenger in the 21st century. Welcome aboard. You are along for the ride, oh reactionary one. I'm in the vanguard. I've trained thousands of people to use, successfully mind you, unlike YOU, non-punitive parenting methods...The ones that are supportive, informational, patient, loving, and gentle. And they work. > Your humble guide, > Opinions Please run that "The world is moving on without you," number for me again. And prove it. Show me the money. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin This is a wonderful first cause of non-spank thinking.... Violence is bad. Who says we want children to be less violent? We are at war in Iraq.. should we conduct a less violent war? When injustice is seen, should its response be less violent? This is a eunuch position. This is the voice of loud women, and the men who listen. Violence is part of who men are, and less of who women are. There is a time to be polite, and a time to be rude. That's why I've always liked Winston Churchill. Needed in war, discarded in peace. Thank goodness violent people are available to step up to the plate when it is their time. > This is a wonderful first cause of non-spank thinking.... Violence is > bad. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thank goodness violent people are available to step up to the plate > when it is their time. I see. You feel that it's okay to condition a child to violence then. All for ... what, exactly? What makes you think unspanked children can't be violent if violence is needed? You are advocating for people to grow up to be GENERALLY violent, "just in case," then? By the way, I know a number of un-spanked that have grown up to join the military. So, now you are prepared to tell parents they must raise their children to be violent. Excellent. Do it. I think it would be a real promoter of NON-SPANKING agenda though. A lot of people might just wake up that never thought of it quite like you have so artfully put it. You are full if it. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin "Eunuch" is a very good descriptive word to describe feminists. One poster on another bulletin board actually referred to feminists as the new eunuchs. Loud and shrill, they presence in relatively large numbers is more an accident of history than anything else. In time, unwilling to breed and raise children capable of living in a variety of situations, their numbers will decline precipitously as the job market that sustains their independence dwindles. No-spank will accompany them on their return to the fringes of mainstream society. > This is a wonderful first cause of non-spank thinking.... Violence is > bad. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thank goodness violent people are available to step up to the plate > when it is their time. ....desperately screeched with frustrated impotence...... > "Eunuch" is a very good descriptive word to describe feminists. One > poster on another bulletin board actually referred to feminists as the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> Thank goodness violent people are available to step up to the plate >> when it is their time. Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin This has to be one of the most ignorant posts opinions has yet submitted to the ng. But he does excel in ignorant opinions. > Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic > status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only > concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. As the subject line reads: "Judgmental Jerks." Obviously I found one! Must be a schoolteacher! > This has to be one of the most ignorant posts opinions has yet submitted > to the ng. But he does excel in ignorant opinions. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only > > concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. > As the subject line reads: "Judgmental Jerks." Obviously I found one! > Must be a schoolteacher! You mistake "being" for finding. Your posts of blame and fault finding, with no alternatives offered, (avoiding actually doing anything, thus avoiding the chance of failure) shows you have nothing but "judgment." Hence you are the very "jerk" mentioned. 0:-> >> This has to be one of the most ignorant posts opinions has yet submitted >> to the ng. But he does excel in ignorant opinions. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>> never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only >>> concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Right on the money! ;-) Doan > As the subject line reads: "Judgmental Jerks." Obviously I found one! > Must be a schoolteacher! [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only > > > concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. > Right on the money! ;-) Coming to the defense of your master? 0:-> > Doan > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>> never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only >>>> concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin > > Right on the money! ;-) > > Coming to the defense of your master? Hahaha! Look in the mirror! AF I really just don't get it. What makes anyone think the world is non-violent? And that raising non-violent kids will be good of them. It's just the if you think non-spanking promotes non-violence.. what would be the use of that? Civilizations are clashing, and we want our kids to refrain from violence? Seems you expect someone else to defend us? We have spanked throughout all of Western history. Since the recent experiment by some in not spanking, does the world look less violent to anyone? > I really just don't get it. We can tell. > What makes anyone think the world is > non-violent? I don't know anything that thinks that. Do you? > And that raising non-violent kids will be good of them. Yep. Raising non-violent kids can one day led to a much less violent world. Got to start somewhere. The violent world isn't going to just shut down violence all at once. > It's just the if you think non-spanking promotes non-violence.. what > would be the use of that? A much less violent world? > Civilizations are clashing, and we want our > kids to refrain from violence? Yep, sure do. It's very difficult to teach children the ways and methods of non-violence if you raise them violently. > Seems you expect someone else to defend > us? You are confused. I doubt many parents that chose non-violent methods of child rearing expect someone to defend us. What makes you think a non-violent person can't fight? My take is that those not caught up in violence as a habit, when push comes to shove, are much better fighters. > We have spanked throughout all of Western history. Have we now? And your proof of this would be? > Since the recent > experiment by some in not spanking, does the world look less violent to > anyone? Yep. Look at who the violent ARE. All spanking cultures. How long has it been since Sweden went to war aggressively on the offense? In fact we are going to get to see, with this one example, how a generally non-violent people who have just chosen non-violent child rearing methods in the last couple of decades (and they were NOT non-violent in raising their children not long ago) will handle the problems they are facing with violent immigrants that come from violent child rearing methods societies. We'll get to see, you and I, how law and other civilized methods of controlling criminals actually works. Or doesn't. Hang around. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin less violent world my a.s.........that f.cking lesbo bitch and his bushit saviors invade another country, start a civil war, and then claim they're going to stop violence by ending spanking.......goddamn her worthless skin........the goddamn bitch is a f.cking hypocrite........... ]:^< whined about wanting a less violent world goddamn you..........yours is the f.cking nero solution.........if they don't go along with you, kill 'em..........kill the christians who spank.........kill the muslims who spank.........kill anyone who spanks so the world will be a less violent place........goddamn you.........god f.cking damn you...........you're a hypocrite of the worst sort..........goddamn idiots like you create hell on earth.......... ]:^< whined about a lack of peace on earth in one thread while singing the praises of war in another Opinions Wrote: > Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic > status. Blue-collar folks are giving to more physical activities than > are those in traditional white-collar jobs. I'm confused by this statement. I have read it over 5times and have n clue what you are trying to say. Opinions Wrote: > Parents with the luxury of staying home or with surplus income are fre > to engage in alternative disciplinary strategies. It has been calle > flower arranging with children because of its time consuming natur > and > questionable results. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. It takes no more time for me to discipline my son with "alternative strategies than it did to warn him 3 times before spanking him, an then console him after spanking him. And his behavior is 100% bette because I AM taking the time to talk to him and guide him in bette behavior. Flower arranging?? BAH That's funny. 90% of the Stay at Home Mom that I know are single income (obviously) between $35 and $50K a yea with at least 2 kids Most have 3-4 kids. For simplicity sake let say that A family has 2 kids ages 3 and 5yrs old. They Gross $40,000 year. The cost of raising those 2 kids for 1year is $18,520 based o this handy dandy chart I foun http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/kids/tlkidscost.asp Nearly HALF of the income is spent housing clothing, feeding, healt care, transportation etc. Yeah that really leaves a LOT of disposabl income! Opinions Wrote: > Poorer parents may not have surplus income childproof everything, cu > the kid's allowance, or have an extra car to withhold the privilege o > driving. The jobs they hold may grind them into dust by the end of th > day. Do you know how much a package of childproofing safety items costs? about $10 Yep just bought some safety knobs to go over the doo handles, some cupboard locks, and some outlet covers...and it reall put me in the poor house let me tell you!! You don't need surplus income to properly discipline your kids...yo just need to be patient, consistent, and Firm. And what is that kick about jobs grinding them into dust? Have YO ever stayed home Sick with the flu Wiping up your 3yr olds puke, whil changing a baby's diaper? Only to realize that this IS your job? Yo don't get time off or vacation, you can't flop on the couch after hard days work, because you're still on the clock! Being a Stay A Home Parent is not easy, and you don't get paid anything to do it. Opinions Wrote: > All too often, those given to telling everyone else how they must live > their lives have too little to do and too much to do it with. Having > never walked for a year in the shoes of another, they are only > concerned with justifying their own largely useless existence. And Little "o" ended on a "bright note" Why don't you take a littl bit of your preaching, read it, and apply it to your own life -- beccafromlalaland Woody Guthrie said it best when he wrote: "I've seen lots of funny men; some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen." Blue-collar workers tend to rob with guns. While white-collar workers no longer use fountain pens, their crimes tend to involve niceties such as fraud, deception, swindle, or embezzlement. There really is a reason why it's called "white-collar crime!" Any inclination to crime tends to follow occupation. Parents able to make it on one income are generally able to make ends meet in a budget cycle. In some cases, they get help from their parents (the young child's grandparents). They may be able to max-out credit cards. Others are not nearly so fortunate. A common generic label is "working poor." For these folks, $10 can make the difference between who gets to eat and who doesn't. Next week it might make the difference between seeing a doctor or not. Sorry you missed the joy of rising diapers in the toilet after changing them! Then, you got to give them a proper washing before hanging them OUTSIDE in a 30 mph wind with snow on the ground. I've got a feeling that would really make your day. > Opinions Wrote: > > Much like crime, child discipline is a function of socioeconomic [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > And Little "o" ended on a "bright note" Why don't you take a little > bit of your preaching, read it, and apply it to your own life. I cloth diaper because it's cheaper, and friendlier to the enviroment. Budgeting can work wonders for every family "working poor" or not. Opinions Wrote: > Woody Guthrie said it best when he wrote: "I've seen lots of funny men; > some will [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > -- > beccafromlalaland Signaturebeccafromlalaland Have a child that requires extensive and specialized medical care or parents that suffer job loss and a budget can suddenly become worth less than the paper it's written on! Worse, death or medical complications with a child often precede divorce. This, too, can send budgeting haywire. > I cloth diaper because it's cheaper, and friendlier to the enviroment. > [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > > -- > > beccafromlalaland > Have a child that requires extensive and specialized medical care or > parents that suffer job loss and a budget can suddenly become worth > less than the paper it's written on! Worse, death or medical > complications with a child often precede divorce. This, too, can send > budgeting haywire. Wonderful argument to forgo budgeting. We'll all try your method. That will help the working poor by them not having to think about disaster until it strikes, and it will, sooner, now that the are on the "lil 'o' ignore trying because you are doomed to failure" misanthropy. Nice goin' lil 'o'. Right up there with your rebuttal of science. 0:-> >> I cloth diaper because it's cheaper, and friendlier to the enviroment. >> [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] >>> -- >>> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Oh so since my youngest child was just diagnosed with autism and m older child is classified as "High Needs" I should just give up rol over and sink into debt, because budgeting for our family and for m Sons Life long care isn't worth the paper it's written on. Sound like a plan to me! Opinions Wrote: > Have a child that requires extensive and specialized medical care or > parents that suffer job loss and a budget can suddenly become worth [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > -- > beccafromlalaland Signaturebeccafromlalaland > Oh so since my youngest child was just diagnosed with autism and my > older child is classified as "High Needs" I should just give up roll > over and sink into debt, because budgeting for our family and for my > Sons Life long care isn't worth the paper it's written on. Sounds > like a plan to me! becca, if you'd like, get in touch with me directly. If you don't already know you have some support for special ed rights for your child via the federal government. lil 'o' is invested in other's failure because of his own. It's lonesome for him. I've worked in the field of special needs children. And I'm currently reconnecting to keep up with the progress and up to date availability. Best wishes to you. And if you were to follow lil 'o' and Doan you'd be whaling on those kids to "make them behave." Kane > Opinions Wrote: >> Have a child that requires extensive and specialized medical care or [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] >> -- >> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin No, you should not toss your budget merely because you have a "high needs" child. Nevertheless, as you may be quite aware, autism is not the only "high needs" classification. Everyone with a "high needs" child is fighting for their slice of a dwindling budget pie. Local and state budget constraints shifts the financial burden to the parents. Since high-stakes testing and mainstreaming became mandates, schools do not always welcome "high needs" students since they are potential liabilities. All of this, and more, can put a great deal of stress of parents with a "high needs" child on their hands. > Oh so since my youngest child was just diagnosed with autism and my > older child is classified as "High Needs" I should just give up roll [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] > > -- > > beccafromlalaland > No, you should not toss your budget merely because you have a "high > needs" child. Nevertheless, as you may be quite aware, autism is not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > schools do not always welcome "high needs" students since they are > potential liabilities. What a liar. They are both mandated and federally funded to welcome those children. And set up the special programs to help them with learning. Man you are sick. > All of this, and more, can put a great deal of > stress of parents with a "high needs" child on their hands. Actually it's nut cases such as you that make this wild accusations that put a great deal of stress on parents with such children. It's called LYING, YOU SICK f.ck. But have a wonderful day. 0:-> References for the truth: http://www.nea.org/specialed/index.html http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=IDEA " To understand your child's rights in America's public schools, it helps to start with one of the primary laws governing the education of children with disabilities: the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (P.L. 101-476). IDEA is a federal law that guarantees a free and appropriate public education for every child with a disability. This means that if you enroll your child in public school, his/her education should be at no cost to you and should be appropriate for his/her age, ability and developmental level. IDEA is an amended version of the Education for All Handicapped Children Act (P.L. 94-142), passed in 1975. In 1997, IDEA was reauthorized (P.L. 105-17), further defining children's rights to educational services and strengthening the role of parents in the educational planning process for their children. " Becca should be looking at this law, right now. http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/leg/idea/idea.pdf And that's a 1996 law, lil 'o' the big lying prick. So it's not like YOU couldn't find it or know about it. You simply want to make everyone else the same kind of miserable wretch you are. http://www.autism-pdd.net/law.html This is very important one for Becca to know about. Becca should apply to be her children's "Educational Advocate" if the child is going to be enrolled in public schools. It's not hard, and it makes certain SHE must be invited to ALL educational planning for her child. And be a party to the IEP. It's not valid unless she signs off on it as an EA. "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act – every child has a right to a free, appropriate public education regardless of disability. (Formerly Public Law 101-476, IDEA 1975, amended 1997) 20 U.S.C. §1400 et seq.; 34 C.F.R. §300 Part H of the IDEA provides funding to states to identify infants & toddlers with developmental disabilities and to offer early intervention services from birth to age 3. Under this law, federal funding is provided to states that provide special education and related services to students with disabilities from ages 3-21. School districts must provide special education, related services and supplementary aides and services, at no cost to parents, to meet the unique needs of a child with a disability. Related services include any services that may be required to enable a child with a disability to receive educational benefit, such as occupational & physical therapy; assistive technology. Supplementary aides & services include note taking, extra time on tests, etc." http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dd/aic/federal/index.htm http://list.feat.org/wa.exe?A2=ind0005d&L=featnews&O=D&P=435 http://www.reedmartin.com/autismresourcesandarticles.htm Now you may relodge your head up your a.s, lil 'o' and resume being the blind pig you obviously are. How dare you try to harm people in this way. >> Oh so since my youngest child was just diagnosed with autism and my >> older child is classified as "High Needs" I should just give up roll [quoted text clipped - 135 lines] >>> -- >>> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin stupid bitch, don't you know that programs have two parts........if there is not enough money, the law is as worthless as you are.......a law guaranteeing every frigging lesbo like you a free trip to hell is a damn good idea, but if there isn't enough money the law is as worthless as your smelly c.nt.........the national government has been pushing welfare funding on the states for years......the states are having trouble getting enough money.......stop your link-rich bitch posts and get out in the real world before it bites you on the a.s........ yada, yada gov'ment is great crap lookie, lookie, the war mongering lesbo bitch just sits on her fat a.s and surfs...............the fat a.s bitch uses link-rich bitch posts to prove nothing.........f.cking sounds yummy good........only the goddamn stupid a.s lesbo bitch didn't tell us how this sh.t gets money for all the crap the law promised..........it's like this, dumb a.s, your bushit savior has borrowed money to save your worthless c.nt from the muslims........little babies now owe the gov'ment a sh.t load of money just for being born in this country........now, there's going to be another war that will require more money.........sooner or later the whole goddamn thing is going to fall apart.........that's what happens to empires, dumb a.s.........they fall apart trying to make everybody feel happy........ ]:^< spreads gov'ment propaganda and libels another poster at same time You are truly clueless aren't you Opinions. I happen to know the laws that protect my child's rights as handicapped individual. And My Family's rights as well. Even at th young age of 15months old he was recieving physical, occupational, an speech therapy through the school district because by LAW they ar required to give my child a MINIMUM of 2 hours of therapy per week. Our school district actually offers 3 1/2 hours a week once you ad together individual home therapy (1hour) Playgroup (1.5hrs) and th Optional Swim Therapy (1hour) This applies to ANY child with physical, mental, or emotional handicap. All of the testing we hav had done would not qualify as "high-stakes" Thats just a ridiculou assumption from someone who knows nothing about this topic. Schools are required to admit and educate students who need extra help Ever wonder why every school has a special Education class or Special Ed. teacher at the very least...because they HAVE TO! The "stress" on the parents is likely more from the ACTUAL difficult in raising a child with special needs...it is emotionally and sometiem physically draining, it's a Challenge. If a couple were climbing mountain I'm sure they would spat going up because it's DIFFICULT...bu not impossible. Opinions Wrote: > No, you should not toss your budget merely because you have a "high > needs" child. Nevertheless, as you may be quite aware, autism is not [quoted text clipped - 149 lines] > -- > beccafromlalaland Signaturebeccafromlalaland Even at 15 months old the school district gets involved? Physical, mental or emotional handicap? What is an emotional handicap? >Even at 15 months old the school district gets involved? >Physical, mental or emotional handicap? Not the school district in my state, but *early intervention* programs provided by the state and mandated by the US federal government. >What is an emotional handicap? Autism is one. Autistic children do not engage with people as people. They tend to ignore people and be involved with objects or to use people as objects to get what they need. My dgs was diagnosed at 18 months and is receiving several therapies through EI though they are not adequate to his condition, so we privately fund some other therapies that the state does not fund for him. He receives 2 hours a week of speech and language therapy. At diagnosis, he did not even babble and had *no* words at all - 6 months after therapy, he has about 6 words of which two are communicative and 4 are labels for objects - and he is using pictures to communicate when he wants certain toys. He receives an hour a week of physical therapy. He has low muscle tone, despite having walked on time. This just began, so I haven't yet seen any progress, but his therp is excellent and is creating a relationship and getting him involved. He gets 2 hours a week of Occupational therapy (for fine motor skills, sensory processing and motor planning issues). At diagnosis, he acted like he did not really know his hands were connected to his body. He would use adult's hands to clap or to pick up toys, not his own hands. He did not point, clap, wave bye bye, put out his arms to be picked up. After 6 months of therapy, he can now do some simple puzzles, his pincer grip has improved and he can put small blocks into a narrow mouthed container, he can point if someone holds his wrist (he always used his thumb before, since his index finger was weak and hard to extend), he can clap for himself, he can pick up and eat finger foods, he can guide a fork into his mouth though he cannot yet pick up food on a spoon or fork. He receives one hour a week of developmental therapy (this is the emotional piece). At diagnosis, he never played with toys appropriately. He spun objects, laid down and looked at wheels, open and closed doors, examined objects and threw them behind him rather than using them. After 6 months of therapy, he now plays with some toys appropriately including cars and trucks and trains - instead of watching the wheels spin, he will push them across the room and make vrooom, vrooom sounds. He will try to do puzzles and shape sorters. He will do stacking rings. He will play with balls by throwing them in his basketball hoop. He did none of this on his own. The private therapy is increasing his eye contact and his wanting to play with us, so we can now get his attention much more often. When he is three, the EI phases out and he will be re-evaluated by the school system and therapies will then be provided by them either in his preschool setting or at home. Much will depend on what kind of progress we see as to whether or not he goes to a special preschool class or a mainstreamed one. ATM, we have chosen to send him to a *regular* preschool that will integrate him, but in a class for children a year younger than he is. If that seems to work out, we may move him up with age peers with an *aide* when he is three. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits >> Even at 15 months old the school district gets involved? >> Physical, mental or emotional handicap? [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > out, we may move him up with age peers with an *aide* when he is > three. He's autistic because you are feminist, right? I wonder what science might have had to do with developing ways to help your child with developmental tasks. Opinions seems to this science is just a religion. 0;-> > -- > Dorothy More seriously, thanks for posting this. It's very consistent with what my wife does with preschool and special needs children. You read almost like her daily debriefing (deflation really) after a long day of work with children on the spectrum. She loves the work though. She does half the day as an 'aide' to a more severely disabled child, and then on to her other work, much as you describe. Kane > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > > The Outer Limits Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin oh, so now you have a wife.........how frigging convenient..........what a goddamn joke.........you want us to believe you stay home all day pecking on the computer while some abused gal brings home the bacon........bet she drives the rusted out family pick up truck too because you lost your goddamn license.........are you trying to tell us that you're a f.cking work shy toad with a criminal record and one of us was stupid enough to feel sorry for you........i feel sorry for her.......any decent human being should have kicked your worthless a.s out of the trailer park years ago..........sh.t, you have a wife of your imagination..........you like proofs.........prove you're married..........prove you don't have a criminal record.........what was it, doing drugs or driving drunk like bushit........prove you're anything other than an alligator-mouthed humming bird-assed boob........prove you've got a dinky where it counts big boy.........prove you didn't get traded for a couple of packs of cigarettes by very bad men doing life without parole..........i f.cking dare you, bitch........hell, the only hard-on you get is from screwing somebody online........you're a f.cking three-boobed lesbo bitch.........your third boob's between your ears, dumb a.s.........you'd be great in a freak show........too bad barnum isn't alive.........you're like the rest of the bushit bastards........the only difference is got to wear one of those orange jumpsuits earlier than your bushit saviors.......like bushit, you're a goddamn f.cking liar........the world's not safe because of idiots like you.........they should have left your worthless goddamned a.s locked up.........i hope you break your goddamn parole.......... ]:^< wrote: my wife supports my worthless a.s while i stay home! > oh, so now you have a wife.........how frigging > convenient..........what a goddamn joke.........you want us to believe [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > up.........i hope you break your goddamn parole.......... > ]:^< wrote: my wife supports my worthless a.s while i stay home! I make many times more staying home than she does going to work. It's her love. She is very good at it too. Of course I have been known to go out on occasion as part of my work. 0:-> You seem a bit distraught. I hope things are going well for you and your killer attack police trained dogs. As for proofs..well, If I made claims related to those issues you listed I'd likely have provided the proofs. I usually do when I bring up an issue, and often when I challenge someone else's claim. I await your proof. 0:-> Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin you don't give proof with your libels..........why should anyone else.........any fool willing to condone the starting of world war 3 in the name of preventing violence to children is f.cking insane..........you're a hypocrite and a coward............ ]:^< whined defensively: I what proof i'm no crook Greegor Wrote: > Even at 15 months old the school district gets involved? > Physical, mental or emotional handicap? > > What is an emotional handicap? Yep. The Birth to 3yrs Early intervention program is run by th Intermediate School District in my State. My County happens to hav one of the better Special Education school systems in the state, with facility, teachers, and therapists to accomodate birth to age 18. An emotional handicap is any condition that interferes with norma interaction with others. Or prevents a child from participating in hi enviroment. Autism, bipolar, borderline personality disorder, etc etc Some States lump emotional and Mental in the same category -- beccafromlalaland You hope I don't know what I'm talking about. As part of the grand social experiment conceived during better economic times, mainstreaming is controversial. Maggie brought up a good point: The effectiveness of a law depends on the funds allocated enforce it. Local and state government budgets can be fickle. Priorities shift. Similar debates over cost effectiveness exist over preemies and geriatrics. On the federal level, 504 can be repealed or reinterpreted to meet budgetary constraints. That's already happened with Medicaid. The sticky wicket for "high needs" students may be who pays for evaluation. Evidentiary documentation can be costly. Absent the paperwork, students may no qualify for special attention. Educational policy makers may began to favor FAPE with minimal IDEA if "high needs" kids fail to transition smoothly into the workplace or otherwise prove burdensome to society. In an effort to reduce the "educational flatline," disruptive and time consuming IEPs could evert back to less complicated 504s or both could disappear altogether. Large numbers of parents with more normal kids may protest LREs for ECs as detrimental to their children learning. That argument may have some merit when effects of the "educational flatline" are considered in light of the need to compete in the global economy. ECs may be seen as educationally expendable for the greater good. Taxpayers may chafe at costs and begin PACs endorsing more traditional educational policies. Beyond reveresal of liberal legislative mandates, the extent of your future rights may depend on how good an attorney you can afford. Quality legal representation can cut into the family budget sufficiently to be beyond the reach of many. > You are truly clueless aren't you Opinions. > [quoted text clipped - 174 lines] > > -- > > beccafromlalaland > You hope I don't know what I'm talking about. You can relax knowing your hopes are fulfilled. > As part of the grand > social experiment conceived during better economic times, mainstreaming > is controversial. Isn't just about everything for you? > Maggie brought up a good point: The effectiveness of > a law depends on the funds allocated enforce it. Local and state > government budgets can be fickle. Priorities shift. Similar debates > over cost effectiveness exist over preemies and geriatrics. I don't think you understand, "mainstreaming." It doesn't mean children with disabilities are in the classroom full time. And failing funding schools to do this who would be paying for it and what NEW institutions would have to come into being? Or maybe you'd prefer these folks just strangle their children upon Dx of a problem? In fact a lot of your "advice" and "information" strongly suggests a gloomy outcome and inevitable doom. Might as well pull the plug, eh? Funny how your kind has always been with us, and except for a few glitches CREATED BY YOUR KIND we seem to keep pluggin' along, and for the most part having rather a good time. > On the federal level, 504 can be repealed or reinterpreted to meet > budgetary constraints. That's already happened with Medicaid. The > sticky wicket for "high needs" students may be who pays for evaluation. > Evidentiary documentation can be costly. Absent the paperwork, > students may no qualify for special attention. You seem to know the words, but not the operational details. But then, that's to be expected. Your name is not "Facts." > Educational policy makers may began to favor FAPE with minimal IDEA if > "high needs" kids fail to transition smoothly into the workplace or > otherwise prove burdensome to society. In an effort to reduce the > "educational flatline," disruptive and time consuming IEPs could evert > back to less complicated 504s or both could disappear altogether. And what would be done with the living breathing human beings called "Kids," Opie? > Large numbers of parents with more normal kids may protest LREs for ECs > as detrimental to their children learning. Already been done, so I've heard. 0:-> Problem for you is that it's not all a cookie cutter. Some disabled children are in the mainstream classroom, but few are there more than a short period per day. They are in resource rooms and other facilities. You are far too ignorant of this issue and it's actual operation to be making these grandious claims. We either take care of our less abled citizens or we don't. HOW much we do is the main question for those of us that are responsible members of society. We don't asked the question about whether or not to put them out on the ice for brother bear to take away. > That argument may have some > merit when effects of the "educational flatline" are considered in > light of the need to compete in the global economy. I love your "global" thinking ploy. When you make an operational claim at the service level, on the line as it were, then before anyone can find anything intelligible you jerk them into outspace for the "Overview." Brilliant tactic. If I ever want to lie and mislead I'll remember it. > ECs may be seen as > educationally expendable for the greater good. Taxpayers may chafe at > costs Show me a day they have not in all our history and projected into the future and I'll introduce you personally to St. Peter. Cause that's where we'll all be when taxpayers don't "chafe." > and begin PACs endorsing more traditional educational policies. "Begin? R R R R R R > Beyond reveresal of liberal legislative mandates, the extent of your > future rights may depend on how good an attorney you can afford. When has that not been true? > Quality legal representation can cut into the family budget > sufficiently to be beyond the reach of many. Here we go with the doom and gloom platitudes. There is also a chance of getting hit by falling space debris. Shall we all wear inch thick steel plate helmets and stay indoors mostly? What are you suggesting we DO? That's the problem with you I see now. You took PET home to your children and you began thinking just like this. Unless things are immediately perfect, why, "it cannot work." I have this fantasy that your life is extremely empty, and you have to fill it up with this nonsense just to keep from slitting your wrists. becca seems, oddly enough, to be having a ball with the challenges life threw at her. Running down resources. Finding ways to make things work. Real practical everyday stuff. What real people, healthy people do, routinely. And so far my bet is you have not succeeded in making her contemplate putting her kids out on the ice for the bears. But hey, you are at least making the effort. The odds are against you though. It's amazing what a little love and effort can do in these cases. The vast majority turn out not just well, but fabulous because everyone learns about the special skills and valuable insights children with a disability can bring to the table. And it's amazing how many are actually Savants. 0:-> >> You are truly clueless aren't you Opinions. >> [quoted text clipped - 174 lines] >>> -- >>> beccafromlalaland Signature"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin |
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