Family Forum / Parenting / Spanking / July 2006

Yes, children are much more impressed by cold, expressionless,
controlling beatings.

Leave them in anticipation of a beating. That's MUCH more effective.

Teach him to rationalize criminal assault. That's right. We don't have
enough violence in the world minimized or rationalized now.

But be sure to "punish."

And gone at age 18, right? BECAUSE THEN IT GOES BY THE CORRECT NAME:
"assault."

Won't confuse him a bit. No sir eeeeeee......

Can't speak for Dorothy, but what do you think I'd say?

You are so busy propagandizing for spanking, Doan, that you lose sight
of reality. You are sick. Get over yourself.

0:->

To me it's simply shocking that someone sets guidelines for something
like spanking.

Though I think it's always completely wrong, I can understand someone
spanks a child out of anger. Like something you do when you loose
control of yourself. But spanking a child calmly, coldly, cool, to me
is just terrifying. YYou have to be somewhat like a torturer. I dont
say parents who do it are torturers, but to me it's something
unthinkable

I cant understand how a parent can act like that

Punishing a child is sometimes necessary, but punishments don't have to
be cruel. You dont have to spank. To me, it'll always be a burden to
punish my kids.

Spanking should never, ever,  be considered. It's OK to change your
mind if that's the case. Anyway, parents should hear  their children
before giving any punishment.

I guess this can make things even worse

To me, that definetely does.

Amanda

What happened to 5,6,7 and 8?

5.  Ask your child to lean over, stand up, lie down, however it works
best.  The main purpose is to avoid wrestling with your child.  She
needs to willingly submit to punishment. For example at our house,
Clancy prefers to stand up and lean both hands against the wall, while
Haven would rather bend over my lap.

Where is it written that anyone should *willingly submit to
punishment?*  Unless your object is to break a child's spirit, why
would this be a requirement.

6.  Where to spank: Steve and I spank on the bottom --- but never the
bare bottom --- because it has the most padding.  Sometimes, if the
hand is the offender (i.e. hitting, pinching, throwing rocks, etc.),
we'll spank the palm.

This one is weird.  Spank on the bottom but not the bare bottom
because it won't hurt as much?  I don't get it at all.  As for
spanking the palm for hitting, well, it teaches that if someone is
bigger than you, they can hit you.  Her kids will probably continue
her *tradition* but that's not a good thing.

7.  As children get older, it may be prudent to have dads administer
spankings to sons and moms to daughters.

I think she is acknowledging the sexual implications of such spankings
here.  And not only that, but she is acknowledging that she still
spanks as children get older.  If the spankings worked, then
supposedly they would be done by the time the child was old enough to
have those implications.

8. The number of times:  The number of spanks we give corresponds to a
child's current age. This makes birthdays bittersweet, but it works
for us.

I think this is an acknowledgement that her kids certainly don't think
an increase in the number of spanks because they are a year older is
particularly logical.  Certainly I see no logic in this at all.

That's why Tucker is described in the book as a *sinner*

11.  Have your child ask for God's forgiveness through prayer.  This
will help her grasp the concept that God is, the one to whom she is
ulrimately responsible.  I sometimes pray, too, if I feel that I still
need to address the issue.

p.265 Sample prayer for a child “Dear God, Thank you that my parents
love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin.
Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart.”

Lovely, make children so submissive that they thank you for things
that hurt them physically.  This is definitely emotional abuse.

12.  Finally, forget about it.  God has forgiven your child, so move
on.

This one is ok, but does she really do it?

Oh and, she knows darn well that she should not be doing this.  Look
at what she says about spanking in public.

"I caution against spanking in public.  If you must go to the public
restroom and wait until it is empty, or better yet, head to the car.
Once, in desperation, I hopped on the elevator and waited until
everyone got off -- then gave Haven a quick swat between floors."

"Steve and I also hesitate to spank our children when guests or
service people are in our home.  You never know how they might feel
about corporal punishment or whether they think it's their duty to
inform the authorities.  Perhaps you can keep a little *tally sheet,*
if necessary, and correct your child later, after the company leaves."

Yes, considering the emotional abuse that goes along with it.

From her website:
Toddler independence? If your little one balks at holding your hand
while in a parking lot or crossing the street, give him a choice.
Remind him, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."
Independence isn't quite so appealing on those terms.

Great way to *encourage* a toddler to be independent. Yeah, right.
Totally unnecessary as well.  Remember too that she says in her book
that you *must* be prepared to follow through on these threats so if
her toddler didn't hold her hand, she would be grabbing him or her by
the hair and dragging them across the street.  

p.137 “One effective correction is to rescind the privilege of playing
with friends. Unfortunately, this punishes the friends, too…for
example, last month, Tucker lost the privilege of playing with his
friend Josiah after school because he told the baby-sitter no when she
ordered him to his room. This upset Josiah terribly, because he had
been waiting all week for this day.”

Oh, good, punish your child's friend when he acts up.

p.138 “As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them
silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk
backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’
Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or
‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say
no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”

Do you approve of giving commands just to see kids jump?  Do you
approve of saying no to reasonable requests like going to the
bathroom?

How are kids ever going to learn to respect authority if their parents
are arbitrary and ridiculous and deliberately cause them pain or
discomfort for no rational reason. (refusing to let a child go to the
bathroom for no good reason?) I wouldn't train my dog that way.

p.143-144 “Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you’re
dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and
talking, call off bedtime. Declare, ‘Nobody has to go to bed tonight!’
Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like—the operative
words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of
a separate room of the house.”

It seems to me this one has been used on military prisoners.  Deprive
someone of sleep and you cause disorientation and make them obedient
to your whims.  

p.171 “As I hinted in the first chapter, the whole catalyst for this
book—fueling my need for creative correction—came when my son was
about six or seven years old. Suddenly, spankings, so effective in the
past, just didn’t work on him anymore. They actually made things
worse. It didn’t matter how calmly and lovingly I administered the
spanking; it would send Tucker even further out of control, and we
would both end up crying.”

Interesting that her older son became *more* violent at 6 after years
of her spanking technique.  Very telling, imo, about what spanking
taught him.  

p.203 “Require the two siblings to go ‘toe to toe.’ Have each child
face the other with their toes touching; they must remain that way
until they’re no longer angry.”  “Use a pair of toy handcuffs to join
two siblings who can’t seem to get along. It’s really fun to watch
them try to eat dinner like this, or read a book, or take the garbage
out, tasks I’ll often assign them.” “Hugs, even forced ones, are good
at breaking down barriers.” “Make each child stand at opposite ends of
the yard. Then have them yell ‘I love you!’ back and forth 20 times.”

p.208 “Got any old hand or ankle weights in the garage? Have your
child wear them around his ankles or carry them around for the day as
punishment for being a bad example to a younger sibling.”
p.209 “Tie the arguing siblings’ ankles together as though they’re in
a three-legged race, and don’t let them part until the issue is
resolved or dropped.”

Lovely.  Kids should be facilitated in talking out their problems and
resolving them, but forcing them like this has to create resentment.

She gets way too much pleasure ouf of watching her children *obey*
in stupid ways.

More *creative corrections* here:

http://www.stoptherod.net/creative-correction-pp146-161.html

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

I don't think anyone talked about censoring your reading.  The content
of Lisa Whelchel's book is what is being criticized.  It is hard to
criticize a book without reading it.  I read it, and it is absolutely
horrendous.

I don't.  Children aren't your possessions.  Children need parenting
that teaches love and respect, that instills a strong sense of inner
self and values, and that never, ever, for any reason, hurts or
humiliates.  And, you cross the inadequate line into what is identified
as legal abuse, and you will see how many individuals are involved in
how you raise your children.

Spanking is assault and battery -- it just isn't yet legally recognized
as such.  There was a time not that long ago when some men were offended
that "others ran around cackling about assaulting and raping wives" when
assault or rape of a wife was not legally recognized.  Laws can change,
and they have.  The law that allows children to be legally physically
assaulted in the name of discipline will, in time, change as well.

Laws change.  Laws are not static.  If they were, slavery would still
exist, women would not be permitted to own property, would be considered
property of their husbands, and husbands would be able to legally
physically assault and rape their wives.

Children are everyone's business, and so is justice and equality.
That's the beauty of a democratic society.

LaVonne

I didn't say you should not read it.

I did say that you should not abuse your child in this way.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

No one told you to read or not to read this. Not with any authority. You
can refuse to read it or read it at your pleasure.

You have a problem with reality, Michael. You should get that fixed.

Too bad. I think it's fascist of you to try and tell anyone they aren't
free to fully express themselves as per the First Amendment to the
Constitution.

Not in many schools it's not. 0:-> Is that fascist?

I think it's rather fascist to insist that doing to an adult what is
done to a child legally is ILLEGAL.

Get the point? Yer sick little buddy.

0:->

So you'd just let him saw away, as he had already cut himself a couple
of times, with the edge of a piece of broken glass until he got to a
major artery? You are sick, little boy.

You, of course, being a stupid monkey would jump right in there, try to
grab him and get him cut worse, wouldn't you stupid?

My guess is that if the child's life was in danger, they just might. But
I can't say.

Nope. You claimed you were against beating of children. And you made it
plain that you would protest it.

Yet, you let Fern go on and on promoting it.

Any thoughts stupid?

DDT

Nope. Not as abusive as she is to her children.

Dropping them off at day care? Is that abusive?

Taking them to the dentist?

Subjecting them to immunizations?

You pissants have drained all the blood you can from that piece of
propagandist bullshit.

Leaving kids with shitholes like the author of that abusive tripe is
abusive, stupid.

If she weren't a celebrity CPS would have investigated her long ago.

She also likes to threaten to sue anyone that disagrees with her, pissant.

Your kind of sick sh.t hole, Doan. The kind that like you would probably
claim they were against beating children but when it's supported does
NOT step up and be heard.

You couldn't bring yourself to confront Fern because you are just like
her and other pissant child abusing torturers, aren't you, Doan?

0:->

You support mind f.cking kids then, and going for various dysfunctional
social development problems?

Odd, mine didn't. Odd too my friends and acquaintances that did not use
a punishment model didn't have that going on.

I've seen kids so raised that would stand their ground and be assertive,
but balk at doing "guilt trips," and generally tended to fight fair
within their understanding.

I have a hunch that YOU felt guilty, and ANY confrontation by the child
trying to get their needs met was interpreted by you as "guilt trips"
perpetuation by them on you.

You DO understand that's probably a problem with YOUR upbringing, right?

How would a child emotionally manipulate you, Greg?

And for that matter, is it not NORMAL for humans to interact in this way
when they feel powerless?

Imagine, a child, be so obnoxious as to think they are, or pretending
they are, powerless. 0:->

Who is that? I don't watch TV, but I'm sure I can find him on the web.

I'll bet they do. Or they are taught that seeking to get their needs and
wants met is a matter of "conning."

Do you know what actually happens in this manipulations of children by
such smarmy methods (you obviously love being "one up" on those kids,
right?).

They kid excepts they are a con, (the parent is teaching them they are)
and learns to get better at it.

On the other hand, if the parent presumes the child experiences what
they experience and their attempts at getting their way is normal and
about needs and wants that might very well be, and often IS, about
DEVELOPMENTAL NEEDS, they do much better.

The parent is telling the child, "you are normal. It's normal to want
things. Let's look at what's possible. I'll help you when I can, and
show you how to get what you want or need by acceptable means."

Kids want most often what kids are ready for and NEED. It's the child
that is frustrated by the kind of parenting you demonstrated you
like....belittling the child...that results in the child going
overboard. Escalating. Asking for MORE than they need as a bargaining
wedge.

In other words, how to create the "Monster Child.'

You have a tendency to suspect things. Usually you are wrong. Why not
ask him?

Did you mean, "cold and dispassionate" as the poster said, and you tried
to make fun of their concern with it's danger to the child's growth and
development?

No, really there isn't a time for that, as a manipulative tool.

If you are feeling cold, feeling dispassionate, then THAT is the time to
show it. Being real doesn't usually worry children. They can identify
with that feeling of being isolated and wanting to be from time to time
to REST UP from personal interactions and recharge one's batteries.

I explained that to children around me both in my private life and my
professional live, and even the sick children I worked with, could for
the most part, get it. Those that could not I noted were the extremely
disturbed.

The rest were cooperative, would give me a break, even at very difficult
times for them...because they KNEW that they had my promise and it would
be kept, that I'd come back to them when I was over my need for a break
and we'd take up THEIR LEGITIMATE needs again where we left off.

Weird. YOU just used one for YOUR argument. The expert you quoted.

What blanket statements have WE made, boy?

And what is political about child rearing methods, except in YOUR mind?

The point of politics is to manage contention between people.

In fact, parents and children, where punishment isn't the model, tend to
be more cooperative than political.

There is much LESS jockeying for power and control. They spend more time
finding ways to cooperate and each get their needs and goals met.

 Together.

I can understand how YOU would find methods based on support and
cooperation "dogmatic drivel," as you have demonstrated your tendency
toward conflict being how you see the world and the people in it.

It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."

0:->