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Family Forum / Parenting / Step Parents / June 2004Am *I* the one who is off base?
I have been in a committed relationship for over 5 years with a woman who is a wonderful mother of four neat kids. She was still married when we first started seeing each other. She separated from her ex roughly a year afterward -- divorced him a year after that. The guy is one of those relentless, emotionally abusive, Master of the Universe types who never rests until he gets what he wants. He takes home over $1 million a year -- which I note mostly because she is terrified of challenging him out of fear that he will use his money to get the better of her in any Court proceeding. He has always viewed her as one of his possessions, and he blames me for having lost her. Ever since I met her kids, he has ranted to them (and to her) about how he "disapproves" of me being in their lives. They are terrified any time there is any evidence of my presence at her house. Also, they have asked me, through her, not to come to any of their school and sports activities because they are afraid he will take his anger out on them later. With each kid having a minimum of one game per weekend (often more) weekends have become a time in which I hardly see her - and he sees her all day long. After three years of my not being present at any of the kids' activities, the ex has figured out that by increasing his involvement in the kids' activities (usually considered a good thing) he decreases and diminishes my involvement. So now he talks to her 3-4 times a day without ranting (often on matters of little or no consequence) and calls each of the kids every night when he doesn't have custody. Lest anyone think he has turned over a new leaf, he still refuses to tell anyone which games he is going to go to -- often showing up unexpectedly. My being excluded from a very important part of her life with her kids is becoming increasingly painful for me. It has become a source of deepening tension between us because she has now taken to seeing his increased involvement in their respective lives as the act of a sensitive and caring father - not the act of a supreme narcissist who is determined to keep what is "his". So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? LB >I have been in a committed relationship for over 5 years with a woman who is >a wonderful mother of four neat kids. She was still married when we first [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >LB In a word, yes. You are off base. Let the guy go to his kids' games. Let him talk to them on the phone. Be grateful that he's not ranting when he's on the phone. If your GF thinks that talking to him for 3-4 times a day is too much, let the answering maching take some of the calls. My ex was like this, minus the million dollars, and minus the relationship involvement before we separated. He was pretty relentless, hated any sign or mention of my boyfriend or my boyfriend's kids, and called on a daily basis--sometimes to rant, sometimes just to talk to our son. Our son was in basketball at the time. My BF never attended any of the games--I went with my ex. I went with my ex to our son's school events as well. It was less stressful for all of us, especially our son who mostly just wanted to live his life without all the adult whirlwind of problems around him. Your GF's father *should* be involved in his kids' lives. Those kids *should* be allowed to have a relationship with him. I agree that it would be far more emotionally healthy for them not to have to be terrified of mentioning your name, but you're not going to change that. They have to learn to deal with it, and so do you and your GF. A good way to start is to stop fighting his involvement, and to just steer clear of involvement with him yourself. Try to find some other way to show your support, and some other things you can do together, and if your GF's ex is as obnoxious as you say he is, I don't think you have to worry about your GF going back to him. The more supportive you are of supporting the relationship of your GF's kids and their father, the better you'll look to the courts, should it go in that direction. Deb R. So did you feel intimidated by your ex's rants? Did you feel controlled by it? I'm sure your son wanted no part of being in the middle, but did he have much choice? LB > >I have been in a committed relationship for over 5 years with a woman who is > >a wonderful mother of four neat kids. She was still married when we first [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Deb R. >So did you feel intimidated by your ex's rants? Did you feel controlled by >it? I'm sure your son wanted no part of being in the middle, but did he >have much choice? > >LB Yes, I did feel both intimidated and controlled. We had some confrontations that I'd never care to repeat with anyone. But eventually, the rants stopped, and we are both entirely civil to each other now. We don't spend much time together, but we never fight about anything. My feeling was and still is, that the more you push against someone the more they're going to push back. It becomes a vicious circle. Problems become worse, not better. If you let a lot of this stuff go, lives become easier. When lives become easier, people aren't as mean and difficult with each other, or if they still are mean and difficult, it doesn't have as much of an impact on your own life as when you're all entrenched in a battle of wills. Decide what the *most* important things are to you and your relationship with your GF and her kids. Then work on those things from your end. Think carefully about what what actually *is* most important to your lives, and not necessarily about what is just or fair in regards to your GF's ex and how he acts. You can't change her ex. Find creative solutions that don't involve antagonizing the ex and putting the kids in the middle. The rest of the stuff is a waste of time to get involved in, and consider letting it go. I think it's true in a lot of cases that people are bullies because they're afraid. Take away what they're afraid of, and they're less likely to be on your case. Deb R. >So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? > >LB What exactly is the question? No one is "off base" necessarily. You're disagreeing with your GF. You're unhappy with your situation. Is there something specific that you want to do differently or want her to do differently? jane Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and when he does stop, and the kids have a chance to live a different reality in which their real choices matter, then we can discuss how we conduct ourselves going forward. LB > >So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > jane > Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is > unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and when > he does stop, and the kids have a chance to live a different reality in > which their real choices matter, then we can discuss how we conduct > ourselves going forward. Then that's an issue you have with your GF, not with her ex. Perhaps you would be better off discussing this with her instead of trying to hold her ex accountable for her decisions? Jess Discussing this with her has not been a smart move on my part. Neither he nor I have been happy with the choices she has made. I want her to push back and confront his bullying, and he wants me out of her life and that of the kids. With me on one side, and him on the other -- she feels caught in the middle. The problem for me in all of this is that by leaving the decision of how to handle him in her hands, I end up feeling controlled by a bully - and that goes against my grain, big time. I am trying to deal with that, but having grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of my life on her. And she wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. This clash of styles is tearing at the very fabric of our relationship. LB > > Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is > > unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jess > Discussing this with her has not been a smart move on my part. Neither he > nor I have been happy with the choices she has made. I want her to push [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > my life on her. And she wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. This > clash of styles is tearing at the very fabric of our relationship. Well, to an extent, how she handles him is going to be up to her. It's not your place, especially if he is already holding a grudge against you. It seems to me that you have more of an issue with her and how the relationship is working than you do with him-he's just the outside irritant, if you see what I mean. Maybe some relationship counseling would be in order if you two can't work this out on your own? Jess >The problem for me in all of this is that by leaving the decision of how to >handle him in her hands, I end up feeling controlled by a bully - and that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >LB It's not about a clash of style though. You two have completely different objectives. Love, Melissa In a previous article, "lbill" <lbill@optonline.net> said: >Discussing this with her has not been a smart move on my part. Neither he >nor I have been happy with the choices she has made. I want her to push >back and confront his bullying, and he wants me out of her life and that of >the kids. With me on one side, and him on the other -- she feels caught in >the middle. And she is, isn't she? >The problem for me in all of this is that by leaving the decision of how to >handle him in her hands, I end up feeling controlled by a bully - and that >goes against my grain, big time. I am trying to deal with that, but having >grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of >my life on her. And she wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. This >clash of styles is tearing at the very fabric of our relationship. But you see that this is *your* issue, not hers? You want to impose your life lessons on her (interesting choice of words, by the way). But they're your life lessons, not hers, and she's not dealing with a bullying abusive father. Keep your issues separate and don't expect her to react to your triggers. You see her as wanting to avoid confrontation at all costs. I submit that she is wanting to avoid unnecessary confrontation that will cost too much for the benefit she gains. She has to work with this man to raise their children. He is part of her life, and always will be. My ex is a bully too, although not abusive. I know that it frustrates my husband at times, but I'm the one who has to deal with his BS when I do take a stand, and so I pick my fights very carefully. And one of my fights will never EVER be that he's too involved with our kids. I have some sympathy for the ex, too. Your wife did a terrible thing to him. Infidelity is a crushing humiliation, and perhaps, if he is as bullying and abusive as you say he is, the two of you should thank your lucky stars that his retribution is merely to ban any and all mention of you when he's around. His children are living with you, that must make him crazy when he thinks about it. I am the Queen of Rationality, and if I were in his shoes I'd be frothing at the mouth. My sincere advice to you, as someone who stands in your SO's shoes (minus the animus towards my husband; he came along many years after we split), is to back off and let her handle her ex the way she knows is best. She knows him, you don't. She knows his triggers, you don't. She has to deal with his crap when she stands up to him, you don't. She has to raise children with him for the next how-many years, you don't. Just let him be the dad, do your step-fathering out of his sight, assure the kids that it's just *FINE* with you if they don't mention you around their dad, and let time do its work. Things might get better when he falls in love again, but right now, respect his pain and let your wife do what she has to. The pressure on her must be immense, with both of you shoving from opposite sides. Don't let yourself become a source of stress and frustration to her; if you want her to love you, support her and love her. Then she'll have the safe haven of your caring when she does have to stand up to him. Right now, she doesn't have a friend or a safe place in the world. Vicki  SignatureJust to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny 'til I wound up poor and fat. -Delbert McClinton > I am trying to deal with that, but having >grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of >my life on her. See, this is what I mean. Becoming what you hate. jane >LB >> I am trying to deal with that, but having >>grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > jane OMG. Jane, you really just cut through the crap, don't you? Lee > Discussing this with her has not been a smart move on my part. Neither he > nor I have been happy with the choices she has made. I want her to push [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > LB I understand what you're saying, I do. But why can't you just find something nice to do for yourself if you get so much childfree time at weekends? Sounds to me like you could have the best of both worlds, a bit of peace in the day, then your wife and the kids coming home later to meet you and tell you all about the game. Have you tried any reframing of the situation? Because as you wisely point out above, the power struggle isn't helping anyone, and pretty soon you'll find yourself entirely alone at weekends if this relationship disintegrates. Nikki <snipped> >The problem for me in all of this is that by leaving the decision of how to >handle him in her hands, I end up feeling controlled by a bully - and that >goes against my grain, big time. I am trying to deal with that, but having >grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of >my life on her. And she wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. This >clash of styles is tearing at the very fabric of our relationship. I have to agree with what everyone else has said, that you have *your* particular issue with this, and she has hers. Your issue isn't hers. You need to stop trying to make it hers. I understand your point about not wanting to be controlled by a bully. I have similar issues. I also understand where your wife is coming from. It makes Chewy see red if my ex starts in with the power trips. And I get just as frustrated if his ex starts in, especially since she didn't do any of that until 3 yrs ago. On occasion, Chewy still tries telling me what I should/shouldn't do WRT dealing with my ex. But he and I've worked hard at trying to support each other when dealing with respective exes, rather than tearing into each other over what the exes are doing. Here's a clue for you. You ARE letting her ex control you, by letting him get you upset and frustrated. Stop letting him control how you deal with things. Start controlling yourself instead of being controlled by him. _Getting_the_Best_of_Your_Anger_ by Les Carter, ISBN: 0-8007-8646-7, is a great book dealing with this sort of thing. I bought it so that I could better help the kids, and I wound up being the first one in the house being helped by it. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > I also understand where your wife is coming from. did i miss where he said they were married or even lived together? i think he said they were in a long term committed relationship that started when the woman was still married to the father. my feeling was that they do not live together which to me has a big part in this. but then it's only 6:30 in the morning.... >> I also understand where your wife is coming from. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >but then it's only 6:30 in the morning.... Maybe I just read that in from reading all the previous responses before I responded. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= In a previous article, kittenNO_LONGER@whitepine.com said: >Maybe I just read that in from reading all the previous responses >before I responded. And I think it's moot anyway. He's long gone. Vicki SignatureJust to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny 'til I wound up poor and fat. -Delbert McClinton > The problem for me in all of this is that by leaving the decision of how to > handle him in her hands, I end up feeling controlled by a bully - and that > goes against my grain, big time. I am trying to deal with that, but having > grown up with a bullying abusive father I am want to impose the lessons of > my life on her. And she wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. This > clash of styles is tearing at the very fabric of our relationship she can't learn her lessons because you tell her. my DSO avoids confrontation at all costs and it drives me nuts because i'm a hash it out kind of girl but to be honest, it's his style and at 33 he's not going to change that. do you think the fact that she had an affair with you while married to him makes it worse? or do you think that he would be like this with everyone? and to be honest, IF she won't change then YOU have to change or you have to accept it or you have to walk away. > Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is > unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and when > he does stop, and the kids have a chance to live a different reality in > which their real choices matter, then we can discuss how we conduct > ourselves going forward. Play it out in your head. She confronts him with your interpretation of his behaviour. He gets angry and annoyed. It redoubles his view of you as a jerk. Is that going to make him stop treating you this way and accept you? Is it going to ease the stress on your wife and her children? I don't know how you've come to the conclusion that being confrontational is the way forward. All my life experiences say that being assertive is a good thing, but being aggressive and confrontational only increases the stakes. Wendy >Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is >unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >LB Oh, well then. I think virtually everyone here has had some wishes along those lines. You have to let that go. It's like wanting your mate to confront her boss at work or ask for a raise. People make those decisions for themselves. Their mates, roommates, friends, children, parents, and other interested parties don't get a vote. Trying to make her confront him over his bullying would itself be bullying. You have to be careful not to become what you hate. jane > Yes, I want her to confront him with "bullying me and the kids is > unacceptable behavior, and I want you to stop it immediately." If and when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > LB and if she confronts him like YOU want and his behavior escalates and becomes abusive then what do you want? >>> So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> jane > My being excluded from a very important part of her life with her kids is > becoming increasingly painful for me. It has become a source of deepening [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? Well, you seem to be holding him responsibility for your girlfriend's decision. If _she_ wanted you there, you would be there. And really, if she was seeing you for a whole year before the divorce, can you blame the guy for having hard feelings toward you? And you know, at least for me, it matter less *why* people are doing things so long as they are doing the *right* things. He's being involved with his kids, going to games, calling. He's not ranting at his kid's mother. Those are all good things. rebecca You're right -- I AM holding him responsible to the extent that his intimidating behavior causes every one to alter their preferences. She DOES want me there, but not at the cost of her kids' peace of mind. If he DIDN'T bully the five of them, the kids would love for me to be at their games. He is so critical about how they do in their games that they groan (sometimes cry) whenever they find out he is taking them home. Not to polish my halo or anything, but I try to build them up as much as I can given that I haven't seen the games. As for not blaming him for having hard feelings towards me -- true, I can't blame him at all. But neither do I feel that that is justification for him to continue to bully her and the kids. Which gets to your final point: bullying kids and ex-wives is NOT doing the right things. LB > > My being excluded from a very important part of her life with her kids is > > becoming increasingly painful for me. It has become a source of deepening [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > rebecca Not to polish > my halo or anything, but I try to build them up as much as I can given that > I haven't seen the games. Do you have a video camera? Maybe your GF can tape the games/events for you. That would enable you to watch them with the kids and support their performance in that fashion. Lee > You're right -- I AM holding him responsible to the extent that his > intimidating behavior causes every one to alter their preferences. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to continue to bully her and the kids. Which gets to your final point: > bullying kids and ex-wives is NOT doing the right things. Ya know, to an extent, she's altering preferences because it's the path of least resistance for her. If she really wanted to, there are ways she could choose to limit his negativity. But to her, she sees his involvement (with the kids) as more of a positive thing than trying to limit his bullying and intimidating. My advice is to follow her lead. Worst case scenario, if this guy is abusive and you get involved, you could only make it worse. If he's harboring a grudge against you for whatever reason and doesn't like seeing you in what he thinks is his place/role with the kids, that's entirely his choice. I think you'll eventually find your place and your role with the kids. :) Jess > If he's harboring a grudge against you for whatever reason yah thnk cause she was involved with him while married to the husband? > You're right -- I AM holding him responsible to the extent that his > intimidating behavior causes every one to alter their preferences. No, no, no. There's always a choice. My ex-husband's half-brother told his mother he really liked his new stepmother and wanted his mom to stop calling her names. He was 6 at the time, and his mom was really pissed at being ditched for wife #3. Unless the man is physically abusing them, they all - wife and kids - have the choice of accomodating him or not. One of the biggest traps in stepparenting is falling into the pattern of blaming the ex for everything. > She DOES want me there, but not at the cost of her kids' peace of mind. If > he DIDN'T bully the five of them, the kids would love for me to be at their > games. He is so critical about how they do in their games that they groan > (sometimes cry) whenever they find out he is taking them home. Not to polish > my halo or anything, but I try to build them up as much as I can given that > I haven't seen the games. You say potato... you call it bullying, maybe he feels that as the man who slept with his wife during the last year of their marriage, he shouldn't have to confront you in your stepparenting role on a regular basis. Can't blame him for that, usually it's women doing this kind of thing, but we don't have the corner on bitter. If he wants this, and your wife agrees, then it's pretty much a done deal. > As for not blaming him for having hard feelings towards me -- true, I can't > blame him at all. But neither do I feel that that is justification for him > to continue to bully her and the kids. Which gets to your final point: > bullying kids and ex-wives is NOT doing the right things. He's been divorced for 3 years. You've been his wife's boyfriend for 5. Do you understand the pain and humiliation of that? However bad their marriage was, your wife did something wrong here, and honestly, in that situation, I would be trying to accomodate my ex a little bit at your expense too. Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about 57 new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's ex-wife to get over it and start cooperating nicely. rebecca >Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. >We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about >57 new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's ex-wife to get over it >and start cooperating nicely. > >rebecca I've noticed that we tend to be less hard on men in this situation too. Though SuzyQ IMO was much further divorced from reality thatn most people who come here. Love, Melissa > was much further divorced from reality thatn most people who come > here. You can divorce reality? Does the lawyer cost a lot? (-: rebecca > You can divorce reality? Does the lawyer cost a lot? (-: Can I have his number? Jess > > was much further divorced from reality thatn most people who come > > here. > > You can divorce reality? Does the lawyer cost a lot? (-: > > rebecca Yes actually it costs plenty. But not in traditional dollars and sense though ;) (yes that was intentional build a damn bridge already LOL) Jen In a previous article, laaria@aol.comNOSPAM (Melissa) said: >I've noticed that we tend to be less hard on men in this situation too. Though >SuzyQ IMO was much further divorced from reality thatn most people who come >here. And she was outraged that her lover's *kids* weren't graciously accepting her and making her welcome. Plus, her lover was **clearly** still involved with his wife, everyone could see it but her. *And* she took an "of course" attitude towards lying to her lover, and didn't see that his lying to his wife meant that he might be lying to her. No, this is a **very** different situation. Vicki SignatureJust to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny 'til I wound up poor and fat. -Delbert McClinton > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you > here. We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got > ripped about 57 new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's > ex-wife to get over it and start cooperating nicely. > > rebecca Well, I decided I wasn't' going to say what I thought of this whole situation. I am actually seriously considering unsubscribing to the newsgroups I read altogether due to my reactions to posts such as this. Ripping an new a.shole *was* my first reaction. And then when he stated he wanted to "Impose his life lessons", I realized that I had better shut the hell up, before I end up starting a huge flame war. Having my husband mistress "impose" herself upon my children pissed me off to no end, as I'm sure many of you will recall. Sounds like this woman got herself into a mess, and went from one controlling boob to another, IMO. (And for Amy, that is what I would consider name calling, btw). I wasn't gonna go there, but there it is.. Cal~ >And then when he >stated he wanted to "Impose his life lessons" Yeah that creeped me out so much I decided not to touch it. Love, Melissa >>And then when he >>stated he wanted to "Impose his life lessons" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Love, > Melissa Yabbut, maybe the guy just doesn't express himself very well. Maybe what he meant to say was that he wanted to share the benefit of his experience. Most of us want to do that. Nothing wrong or creepy about it. It can't really be done, but that's a lesson that every parent learns in time. Lee >>> And then when he >>> stated he wanted to "Impose his life lessons" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yabbut, maybe the guy just doesn't express himself very well. Maybe > what he meant to say was that he wanted to share the benefit of his > experience. Most of us want to do that. Nothing wrong or creepy about > it. It can't really be done, but that's a lesson that every parent > learns in time. > Lee You are too nice, Lee. No, truthfully you're right, perhaps it's just the way he worded it. It was just that his overall tone (to me, anyway) was he wasn't getting his way and he wanted us to all tell him he's right, so he can go to his g/f (wife?) and tell her "See, all these wonderful, intelligent and insightful people all agree with me." See this is why I wasn't going to post. Perhaps after four years, I've become too jaded. Cal~ <snipped> >It was just that his overall tone (to me, anyway) was he wasn't >getting his way and he wanted us to all tell him he's right, so he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >See this is why I wasn't going to post. Perhaps after four years, >I've become too jaded. LOL... no, you're not jaded; you're seeing human nature, Cal. How many times do we, ourselves, try to persuade people to see things our way because of our own life lessons? What are we doing when we tell someone our perspective of a situation they've posted about? The difference is that we're removed from his situation, so we've not got the same stress level about it. In addition to that, we're coming at it from different angles than the one where he stands. His comments push *your* buttons because you see him in the position of your ex's new SO. They push *my* buttons because I've been in the position of *his* SO, with Chewy and my ex pushing at me from both sides. Maybe he'll learn from our different perspectives. *IF* he's open to learning from them. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > You are too nice, Lee. No, truthfully you're right, perhaps it's > just the way he worded it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can go to his g/f (wife?) and tell her "See, all these wonderful, > intelligent and insightful people all agree with me." Don't a lot of us come here looking for that? Maybe we don't realize it at first, and then all the insightful, intelligent folks here slap us upside the head and enlighten us. It just seems as though some of the slaps are delivered in such a fashion as to be more helpful than others. Lee > See this is why I wasn't going to post. Perhaps after four years, > I've become too jaded. > > Cal~ >> It was just that his overall tone (to me, anyway) was he wasn't >> getting his way and he wanted us to all tell him he's right, so he >> can go to his g/f (wife?) and tell her "See, all these wonderful, >> intelligent and insightful people all agree with me." > > Don't a lot of us come here looking for that? I don't know. I never posted with the expectation that anything someone agreed with me about was something I could then bring to my ex and say "See, all these women in ASSP think I'm right and you're wrong, so do as I say". I got that impression from this poster that this was exactly what he wanted to do. Even the subject header gave me the impression he was trying to strong arm her into acquiescing to his demands. Perhaps he just wanted a reality check of his own, but I didn't get that impression at all. Do other's here use what is said in this group as a way to coerce someone into agreements or what-have-you? I agree that many times something posted here could be a good jumping off point for discussion, but if what is posted is simply to say, "See you're wrong, I'm right and here's your proof" and point to our posts, that would be a problem IMO. This is what I saw the OP trying to do. Could be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time but.. that's what I saw. Cal~ >Do other's here use what is said in this group as a way to coerce >someone into agreements or what-have-you? I don't. ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . > Do other's here use what is said in this group as a way to coerce > someone into agreements or what-have-you? > Cal~ No, sometimes though it's more like a "am I really this much of a nutcase" (or rather, "am I way off base" LOL) if other people agree with me and DH or BM or my IL's are just plain getting under my skin over an issue then it helps me sort of validate my feelings and thoughts. I'm not always sure of myself when it comes to some of these issues. Sometimes I need to hear the "there isn't a damn thing you can do to change it so you might as well learn to roll with it and let it go" in order for me to settle down over something. There was something recently that I had to repeat the "but she's a good kid so the rest doesn't matter" about. My MIL told me recently that a long time ago BM had taken Tootsie to my FIL's house and showed him and my SMIL a hand print on Tootsie's face and told them I had put it there (I hadn't) and that was one of the main reasons they hate me so much. I was absolutely floored. I couldn't for the life of me understand why they wouldn't have asked DH about it, I felt violated that such an injustice had occured, that Steph took a slap in the face hard enough to leave marks first of all, and second of all that they have spent so many years believing that I had put it there and third that noone bothered to ASK us if I had really done it. It made me sick to my stomach over it. I had to let it go. It happened so long ago in the past that all I could say to make myself feel better was "I know I didn't do this and I have done right by this kid for all these years and look how great she's turned out". That was a really hard one to do...what I *wanted* to do was call them and give them an hour long asschewing about how f.cking stupid they were. Jen *who still can't believe how stupid they are sometimes* <snipped> >Jen >*who still can't believe how stupid they are sometimes* Things like that are difficult to swallow. How'd your DH take it? Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > <snipped> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Kitten > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Well, since he just found out about it right after I did (because I was the one to tell him) He wasn't as actively pissed off as I was. He is the rational one of the two of us and can see the *it was too long ago to fix it now* way before I can. I have to spend some time being thoroughly pissed off about something before I can get to that place. He was mad, don't get me wrong, but after 11 years of this kind of bullshit from them he wasn't in shock over it and was more easily able to blow it off as typical behavior from them. I guess my big problem is I keep expecting them to grow up and change into real people instead of stupid knuckleheads that need a plexotomy and he is resigned to they'll never grow up and oh gee how *do* they manage to breath with their heads that far up their a.ses ;) My standards for people must be much too high LOL Jen >My standards for people must be much too high LOL LOL... high standards can be sooooo much fun, can't they? Chewy has finally come to the realization that his standards for himself and for the rest of us are extremely (impossibly?) high. Since that realization, it's actually be easier for him to accept it when we mess up. He's soooo much easier to live with these days. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >My standards for people must be much too high LOL > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kitten See that just the thing though... I wouldn't have married DH in the first place if *he* didn't meet my standards in the first place. He isn't perfect by any means, but he is a great guy, smart, funny, caring, blahdey blah blah blah.... He's always been relatively easy to live with anyway though. It's his parents that I should have been watching out for ;) You really don't marry a person, you marry the whole family, I won't go so far as to say that I wouldn't have married him anyway though because I would have in a heartbeat ;) Jen >I wouldn't have married DH in the first place if *he* didn't meet my >standards in the first place. He isn't perfect by any means, but he is a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >wouldn't have married him anyway though because I would have in a heartbeat >;) I knew Chewy had his faults when I married him. But I also knew that with him is where I'm supposed to be. He is EXACTLY what I had on the list I prayed about. I was so specific on the list, I even had hair and eye color, beard/moustache, height, etc. The important parts of the list, though, are the ones that tripped me up. You remember the saying, "Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it?" Well, I did. EXACTLY. I prayed for someone who would accept me as I am, warts and all. Which means I have to accept him warts and all, too, right? I prayed for someone who held my hopes, interests, and happiness as a high priority. No problem there. I also wanted him to be someone who would be strong enough to not let me walk all over him. Being able to walk all over someone isn't my style, and I can't help but think how boring it would be if I always got my way. Well, I got EXACTLY what I asked for. hehehe... Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > I don't know. I never posted with the expectation that anything > someone agreed with me about was something I could then bring to my > ex and say "See, all these women in ASSP think I'm right and you're > wrong, so do as I say". Okay, I misspoke. I was thinking that a lot of people who come here are looking, on some level, for justification for their feelings/actions. "I'm having this problem with stepkid/BM/BF and I'm right for feeling that way/handling it the way I've been handling it" - that kind of thing. And then we get upset when we're told that maybe the way we're looking at the situation or the things we're doing may be a part of the problem. And some of us go away mad and some of us hear the sense and learn from the responses to our posts. I wasn't saying that we all came here so we could use the responses we got here to force someone else to adopt our positions. But then I didn't get that out of the OP's post. <snip> > I agree that many times something posted here could be a good > jumping off point for discussion, but if what is posted is simply to > say, "See you're wrong, I'm right and here's your proof" and point > to our posts, that would be a problem IMO. This is what I saw the > OP trying to do. Could be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first > time but.. that's what I saw. I agree about the value of assp as a starting point for discussions. DH & I have had many interesting and fruitful discussions based on various posts or threads here. But I can't really see that anyone would take assp seriously as a clincher to any argument. It's Usenet, for crying out loud, not a panel of experts. If my DH went to a newsgroup and tried to use the opinions of the people posting there to try to bolster his opinion I'd laugh in his face, and he'd feel the same way about me attempting to do so. A much more damaging issue is when people go to friends or family members and then use their opinions to try to bring their SO around to their viewpoint. That's what I call coercion. But Usenet? Nah. Lee > Cal~ <snipped> >I agree about the value of assp as a starting point for discussions. DH >& I have had many interesting and fruitful discussions based on various [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >opinion I'd laugh in his face, and he'd feel the same way about me >attempting to do so. I use the group to help me sort through my own thoughts and feelings. It's proven to be an invaluable method for me. Dealing with ex's would have driven me bonkers if it weren't for y'all. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= In a previous article, Lee <leronisnospam@att.net> said: >Okay, I misspoke. I was thinking that a lot of people who come here are >looking, on some level, for justification for their feelings/actions. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >looking at the situation or the things we're doing may be a part of the >problem. And how often have we seen the "I thought this was a SUPPORT group!" whine when someone comes in looking for soothing pats on the head and validation of her way of approaching a problem. And these problems often fall into two categories: "See how awful everyone is to me?" or "How can I make my X do Y?" <snip> >I agree about the value of assp as a starting point for discussions. DH >& I have had many interesting and fruitful discussions based on various >posts or threads here. But I can't really see that anyone would take >assp seriously as a clincher to any argument. It's Usenet, for crying >out loud, not a panel of experts. Bite your tongue! We're better than Dr. Phil! Vicki SignatureJust to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny 'til I wound up poor and fat. -Delbert McClinton > Bite your tongue! We're better than Dr. Phil! > > Vicki I may get flamed for saying this, but that's not a terribly high standard to meet, now is it? ;-> Lee >I may get flamed for saying this, but that's not a terribly high >standard to meet, now is it? ;-> >Lee Not at all. :) Love, Melissa "This virtual sand tastes just like real sand." -Line from one of the cartoons SS watches. > And how often have we seen the "I thought this was a SUPPORT group!" > Vicki Maybe we should change the name of the group from 'alt.support.step-parents' to 'alt.bitchslap.step-parents. Lee >Maybe we should change the name of the group from >'alt.support.step-parents' to 'alt.bitchslap.step-parents. I could totally get behind this. ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . I'd say we're more Oprah. How many times do we all say "Own it girl! Own it!" H > In a previous article, Lee <leronisnospam@att.net> said: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Vicki >I'd say we're more Oprah. ODL. Please exclude me from that comparison. ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . Cal asked: >>Do other's here use what is said in this group as a way to coerce someone into agreements or what-have-you?>> No, not at all. I really don't tell other people what I do when I'm online or discuss this newsgroup at all. I use it for several purposes. First, I find it helpful because I'm forced to really think about what's bothering me in order to tell others. Its a way of crystallizing my thoughts and finding out what's really going on inside. A diary just isn't the same, because I don't worry someone will call me on my bullshit in a diary (at least I hope not). Second, I use it as a reality check. If I just got the atta girls, it wouldn't be helpful to me. I love being able to get all sides of an issue. Third, I use it as a way to talk about stuff that my family and friends are sick of hearing about after all these years. Finally, reading the different situations helps me understand what my clients are going through and keeps me from becoming too jaded in my work representing people in their custody cases. I also see the long term results of the orders I have to obtain daily, and that helps me include details I might not have thought of on my own. Good question Cal. brenna > > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with > you [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I wasn't gonna go there, but there it is.. > Cal~ *laughing* oh no, I'm staying the hell out of it <g> Jen On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:42:16 -0400, calinda_ wrote (in message <2j91oqFul0goU1@uni-berlin.de>): > Sounds like this woman got herself into a mess, and went from one > controlling boob to another, IMO well that's a good point the first one DOES control her and the second one is trying... and people tend to have a preference for the type of person they date....marry..... love..... etc.... > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. > We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about > 57 new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's ex-wife to get over it > and start cooperating nicely. > > rebecca Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I would have a real problem with that. Lee > Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that > Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I > would have a real problem with that. > Lee You know, it's not that I _want_ people to start calling this guy names, I think people make mistakes, they shouldn't be flogged for that (not forever, anyway (-: ), especially when they try to make the best of it. But to expect a guy to just get over a long-term affair and accept that the new guy's gonna have a powerful role in his kid's lives, I mean, come on. According to the OP, they've only been divorced for 3 years. It took SO and BM 3 years to finalize all the freaking paperwork, for goodness sake. rebecca >You know, it's not that I _want_ people to start calling this guy names, awwwwwww! Love, Melissa In a previous article, "rebecca" <justrebecca5@yahoo.com> said: >You know, it's not that I _want_ people to start calling this guy names, I >think people make mistakes, they shouldn't be flogged for that (not forever, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >According to the OP, they've only been divorced for 3 years. It took SO and >BM 3 years to finalize all the freaking paperwork, for goodness sake. I haven't seen anyone saying that the ex doesn't have a point. In fact, I've been seeing the opposite. Vicki SignatureJust to think I used to worry about things like that. Used to worry 'bout rich and skinny 'til I wound up poor and fat. -Delbert McClinton > You know, it's not that I _want_ people to start calling this guy names, I > think people make mistakes, they shouldn't be flogged for that (not forever, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > rebecca No, the guy isn't going to get over it in a hurry, or maybe at all. But no one seems to be talking about the effect on the kids. So often, the 'best interests of the kids' is cited in this group. Is it really in the best interests of the kids for BF to rant and rave and refuse to let the kids talk about their mother's BF? It seemed from the OP that the kids are in fact terrified of upsetting their father. How is that good for them, and why is it that everyone seems to be defending the guy for behaving in this fashion. Yes, infidelity is a terrible, indefensible thing. But taking out your anger, hurt and outrage on the kids is indefensible too. Lee >> You know, it's not that I _want_ people to start calling this guy names, I >> think people make mistakes, they shouldn't be flogged for that (not forever, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >thing. But taking out your anger, hurt and outrage on the kids is >indefensible too. BUT... The OP easing up on his end will reduce the pressure the kids feel, at least from that side. And it may help the BF to ease up on his end. The OP can only control his part of the situation. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > BUT... > > The OP easing up on his end will reduce the pressure the kids feel, at > least from that side. And it may help the BF to ease up on his end. > The OP can only control his part of the situation. Oh, I agree. That's why I suggested videotaping the games so he can still be involved without being in BF's face. Lee > Kitten >> BUT... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Oh, I agree. That's why I suggested videotaping the games so he can >still be involved without being in BF's face. I'm glad you suggested it. Otherwise, I was going to have to. A plus of the videotaping is that they can go back over the highlights of the game... again.... and again... and again... Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >No, the guy isn't going to get over it in a hurry, or maybe at all. But >no one seems to be talking about the effect on the kids. So often, the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >indefensible too. >Lee I don't think that's anything the OP can change. Of course it's not cool for the BF to rant and rave and not permit mention of a person who is a big part of his kids' lives. But, the OP has no control over that. The kids have to learn how to deal with a father who acts like that. The OP has to learn how to deal with his GF's ex who acts like that. The best way for him to deal, in my experience of having an ex who used to rant and rave and not permit my son to mention my boyfriend or his kids, is to keep from becoming active in that battle of wills. It will only make things far, far worse for the kids, his GF and himself. His life with his GF and her kids should run parallel, not intermingled, with her life with her kids and her ex as much as possible. What's more important? Going to sporting and school events and all the resulting tension, or staying away from it and letting that part of the kids' lives belong to the parents? He could be trying to form his own life and traditions with them instead of trying to force the situation to fit what he thinks he wants or should have. Deb R. > I don't think that's anything the OP can change. Of course it's not > cool for the BF to rant and rave and not permit mention of a person [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Deb R. Ok, but see to me the difference is this... If BM were to try and dictate to me what I was *allowed* to attend or not I would pretty much tell her to go smoke a pole and do what I wanted anyway. Now if her telling I couldn't attend also resulted in her giving Tootsie sh.t every time I did it anyway I would simply stop going and tell Tootsie how much I love her and want to be there for her but I also don't want Psychopants to have one more reason to give her a hard time about and that would be that. That fortunately is not one of the problems (in the Sea of Many) that we do have. She might be apt to try and give *me* a bad time while I'm there but I have on more than (a few) occasions quietly told her that isn't the time or place and to STFU. I guess in a nutshell the difference to me is how it directly affects my daughter or not. Jen > I don't think that's anything the OP can change. Yes, I know that. The point that I was trying to make is that everyone in this thread has seemed to be defending the BF, but the BF isn't exactly behaving well. That makes me think that the only reason everyone is defending the BF is becasue of the infidelity by the BM & OP and I don't like that. <snip> He > could be trying to form his own life and traditions with them instead > of trying to force the situation to fit what he thinks he wants or > should have. Agreed. Lee > Deb R. > > I don't think that's anything the OP can change. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is defending the BF is becasue of the infidelity by the BM & OP and I > don't like that. Yabbut. You know, everybody always throws 'best interests...' out there. But it seems to me, the birth parents, in this instance, have decided what's best for their children. OP just doesn't agree. But he doesn't get to decide. rebecca > It seemed from the OP that the kids >are in fact terrified of upsetting their father. How is that good for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >indefensible too. >Lee Yeah, that's one of those abuse situations I took with a grain of salt. I don't think OP was lying; I just don't think I'd see the situation the same way. jane >> It seemed from the OP that the kids >>are in fact terrified of upsetting their father. How is that good for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >jane I can see it just as the OP presented it. I've lived it. My ex pretty nearly destroyed his relationship with our son by doing similar things when we first separated, and there was only his speculation of infidelity going on. It was really, truly abusive. I still say, though, that the best thing to do is allow the kids to learn how to deal with it, with help as necessary of course. It's their best defense. The father isn't going to stop being their father and isn't going to stop being the way he is. They'll have some kind of relationship with him for the rest of their lives, and that's the reality they have to handle. I do emphatically think that the OP should stay out of it as much as possible and be a neutral presence in the kids' lives. Whenever my boyfriend (which hasn't been often) pressured me to be a certain way with regard to my ex, or if he happened to be frustrated enough to say something against my ex to my son, it was never a comforting experience and didn't enhance our relationships. Deb R. >Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that >Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I >would have a real problem with that. >Lee I think we're easier on men in general for a couple of reasons. 1). We're mostly a group of women. A woman who started seeing her DH before he was divorced from his previous spouse maybe hits a little closer to home than when it's a man in the same situation. 2). We're mostly a group of SM's. Yes some of us are BM's as well, but as a group we seem to feel a need to counter stereotypes about men and fathers in general. We tend to be far more forgiving of men in general than we are other women. Love, Melissa > We tend to be far more forgiving of men in general than we are other > women. It's true outside of this group as well, not just in Usenet, but in the world at large. For example, single mothers get a lot of bad press generally, but you don't see the same sort of thing when it's a single father. Then they're so impressed with a Dad trying to do it on their own, their prepared to forgive him for not being part of a standard 2x2 nuclear family. Wendy >For example, single mothers get a lot of bad press generally, but you don't >see the same sort of thing when it's a single father. "Dead-beat dad" says "hi". How often do you hear of dead beat mothers, even about the ones who are? ~~Geri~~ . > >For example, single mothers get a lot of bad press generally, but you don't > >see the same sort of thing when it's a single father. > > "Dead-beat dad" says "hi". How often do you hear of dead beat mothers, even > about the ones who are? Sure, there are social prejudices both ways. Wendy >Now I'm worried that >Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations ODL. I think that probably in reality it works on an individual basis, not a gender basis. It hasn't been that long ago that a couple of guys were in here and got mad because they thought we were too harsh. ~~Geri~~ . > > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. > > We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > would have a real problem with that. > Lee Oh, don't worry Lee, if you google about a month or so back (hey jane?) you'll see where another guy was all kinds of upset over his wife having some other guys baby and the other guy having visitation rights because he sued for paternity and won. He got his a.s nicely chewed right here on this board. Nope, *we* aren't an easier on men than women, it just depends on the situation being discussed IMNSHO. Jen > Oh, don't worry Lee, if you google about a month or so back (hey jane?) > you'll see where another guy was all kinds of upset over his wife having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jen Yep, you're right, I just remembered that guy. Boy was he pissed. rebecca >Oh, don't worry Lee, if you google about a month or so back (hey jane?) >you'll see where another guy was all kinds of upset over his wife having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Jen I guess it all comes down to perspective. I thought we went pretty easy on him. Love, Melissa >I guess it all comes down to perspective. I thought we went pretty easy on >him. >Love, >Melissa Me too. But I think we go pretty easy on everyone. jane > >I guess it all comes down to perspective. I thought we went pretty easy on > >him. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > jane ROFL. I was just about to post, telling Melissa "but you're mean." You guys crack me up. rebecca >ROFL. I was just about to post, telling Melissa "but you're mean." You >guys crack me up. > >rebecca No, No, No I'm not the mean one. I don't have a haiku devoted to how mean I am. Come to think of it I don't have one at all... Love, Melissa >>ROFL. I was just about to post, telling Melissa "but you're mean." You >>guys crack me up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >No, No, No I'm not the mean one. I don't have a haiku devoted to how mean I >am. Come to think of it I don't have one at all... Melissa is great Cleans my bathroom all the time Biohazard cleared. Anne >Melissa is great >Cleans my bathroom all the time >Biohazard cleared. > >Anne I love it! Thanks. Love, Melissa Tinkerbell with jugs singing angel on a star posting poisoned dart jane > Tinkerbell with jugs > singing angel on a star > posting poisoned dart > > jane woops, I was laughing so hard I accidentally sent without saying anything. Melissa, I think this goes to the old adage, 'careful what you wish for', don't you think? rebecca > > Tinkerbell with jugs > > singing angel on a star > > posting poisoned dart > > > > jane >Tinkerbell with jugs >singing angel on a star >posting poisoned dart > >jane Ooooh another good one! You guys are awesome. Love, Melissa "This virtual sand tastes just like real sand." -Line from one of the cartoons SS watches. >Tinkerbell with jugs >>singing angel on a star >>posting poisoned dart I like this one. ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . >I like this one. Hey, someone do Geri. Nothing is popping right into my head, Geri. jane >~~Geri~~ >Hey, someone do Geri. Nothing is popping right into my head, Geri. > >jane And then one did: steel-toed breast, cat hair, talk radio, fab red hat, teapots - and it all matches > >Hey, someone do Geri. Nothing is popping right into my head, Geri. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > talk radio, fab red hat, > teapots - and it all matches ODL. I have tears in my eyes. Michelle >ODL. OK, I'm breaking down. What *is* ODL? Deb R. >> ODL. > > OK, I'm breaking down. What *is* ODL? > > Deb R. "Oh Dear Lord" is my best guess, and I only got it this time. I've resisted the urge to ask in the past. Cal~ >What *is* ODL? Oh, dear Lord. or in RSFCker speak: O Deer Lowered. ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . >steel-toed breast, cat hair, ??????? >fab red hat, hat(s) ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . >>Tinkerbell with jugs >>singing angel on a star [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Love, >Melissa I'm trying to picture Tinkerbell with jugs being able to stay airborne... Tinkerbell with jugs--this is killing me! Deb R. > >>Tinkerbell with jugs > >>singing angel on a star [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Deb R. Why do you think she flew with her fanny in the air and zig zagged up and down like that? *snicker* Jen >I'm trying to picture Tinkerbell with jugs being able to stay >airborne... Think dirigible (hot air). Haha! :-) ~~Geri~~ "The masses are a.ses." ----- John Ziegler . >>I guess it all comes down to perspective. I thought we went pretty easy on >>him. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >jane You would too. Because you're mean. Love, Melissa > Oh, don't worry Lee, if you google about a month or so back (hey jane?) > you'll see where another guy was all kinds of upset over his wife having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jen Yes, I remember the thread. I also remember that we were really hard on the guy's *wife*, and that was one of the things that pissed him off. Lee >> Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. >> We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I >would have a real problem with that. I think it really, really depends on how the posts are written. There have been a few women with whom the group was really gentle when they first arrived. (I don't recall folks being overly harsh with Cal when she first arrived.) And there have been a few men we've royally ripped into. (Dave comes to mind. I know I had a hard time with the "tone" of his posts.) Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >>> Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you >>> here. We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she >>> got ripped about 57 new a.sholes for expecting her >>> boyfriend/husband's ex-wife to get over it and start cooperating >>> nicely. >>> rebecca >> Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that >> Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these >> situations. I would have a real problem with that. > I think it really, really depends on how the posts are written. There > have been a few women with whom the group was really gentle when they > first arrived. (I don't recall folks being overly harsh with Cal when > she first arrived.) But there was no need to be harsh with me :D I didn't come in talking about my lover's spouse or ex, etc, or expecting you all to say things just so I could take that to someone and say "see, I'm right, you're wrong". I came looking for advice on dealing with my kids father & SM. There were some things that I felt were harsh at the time, but have come to realize were fairly accurate. I really didn't like being told that I didn't have control over how my kids SM treated them. Or whether she was in their life at all. That really pissed me off, lol. The lack of control really killed me :0). I think it is the circumstances as much as how a post is written that tends to drive the tone of the responses. >And there have been a few men we've royally > ripped into. (Dave comes to mind. I know I had a hard time with the > "tone" of his posts.) I can't recall his situation. I took a break for a while, maybe he was here during that time. Or it could be that I just don't remember the name, I'm terrible with names. Cal~ >>Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that >>Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kitten I was actually speaking about our attitude toward men vs. women in infidelity situations, not generally. It has seemed that we've been pretty easy on the OP in this thread, where we have traditionally been very, um, reactive toward women who come here saying they had a role in the breakup of their SO's marriage. I can understand some of the reasons why a group of predominantly women would react in that fashion, but I find it disappointing nonetheless. Lee > I was actually speaking about our attitude toward men vs. women in > infidelity situations, not generally. It has seemed that we've been > pretty easy on the OP in this thread, where we have traditionally been > very, um, reactive toward women who come here saying they had a role > in the breakup of their SO's marriage. I can understand some of the > reasons why a group of predominantly women would react in that > fashion, but I find it disappointing nonetheless. > Lee I do know my first reaction was more along the lines of how I'd normally react with these types of posters regardless of their gender, though. Because I was also in the midst of a few contentious threads in other groups I read, I chose to check my natural inclination. I do tend be very negative towards the OW/M situations. It drives me bonkers when someone that has an affair gets pissy when the 'cheated on' spouse doesn't just roll with the punches. I don't think my lowered reaction is due to his being male, or if it was just that the timing of his post hit me when I'm questioning my attitudes in my posts. It is certainly something to think about within ourselves, though. All of this has made me wonder though, what does all this negativity do , for or to me. What purpose does it serve? Not saying I'll never post a negative reply to someone as I think we all know it simply isn't in my sarcastic nature. But, I do feel sort of jaded by it all. There have always been some people that will cheat on those they say they love, and some people that don't give a freakin' rats a.s whether someone is married or not, as long as they're 'hot' enough and willing for a good lay. There will always be people who are willing to hurt those they claim to love, for their own pleasures. So, what good does it do me, to rip a new a.shole on these people? As for the OP, *I don't blame the BD* for not wanting such a lying, cheating, scum of the earth dirtbag to have anything whatsoever to do with his children. I don't like that my children have lying, cheating, scum of the earth dirtbags for a father and SM, either. But railing about it has done what exactly, to help me? When we rip someone up about this, how does that help anyone? Then again, by not saying how disgusting we think this is, will we be in effect condoning the whole dirty little business? Ack- what the hell got into MY coffee today, I have no idea. Perhaps I should not archive this post, so no one can throw it all back at me when I rip the next adulterous twit that posts to shreds, huh? Cal~ > I do tend be very negative towards the OW/M situations. It drives > me bonkers when someone that has an affair gets pissy when the > 'cheated on' spouse doesn't just roll with the punches. Yes, but Cal, rolling with it is exactly what you did, in the end, isn't it? There really isn't much choice if you don't want to scar your children, IMO. You just don't like having your face rubbed in it. > As for the OP, *I don't blame the BD* for not wanting such a lying, > cheating, scum of the earth dirtbag to have anything whatsoever to > do with his children. > > I don't like that my children have lying, cheating, scum of the > earth dirtbags for a father and SM, either. ROFL. Cal, you should switch to decaf. rebecca > "_calinda_" wrote in message: >> I do tend be very negative towards the OW/M situations. It drives [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, but Cal, rolling with it is exactly what you did, in the end, > isn't it? In the end, yes. I had to, as you said. But for the 'cheater' to get pissy when the 'cheatee' doesn't simply roll with the punches on the 'cheater's time table, it does drive me bonkers. I mean, what did they realistically expect would happen when they rolled out of bed with their lovers and had to face the real world consequences of what they've done? > There really isn't much choice if you don't want to scar > your children, IMO. True. >You just don't like having your face rubbed in it. No, definitely not. <snip> >ROFL. Cal, you should switch to decaf. Ah well, ain't gonna happen I'm afraid. I accidentally took my coffee from the decaf carafe at my son's college orientation Monday. One sip and I knew this wasn't your normal coffee. I couldn't imagine drinking a second sip. Ick. Cal~ >>>Yes, I noticed this myself. Frankly, I liked it. Now I'm worried that >>>Melissa is right, and the group is easier on men in these situations. I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >why a group of predominantly women would react in that fashion, but I >find it disappointing nonetheless. I try to check my natural tendencies WRT OW/M posts. What got them into the sticky situation is in the past. What can be dealt with in the present are the events going on in the present. If there are past causes for the current events, they need to understand that, but then they need to find a way to move on past it. Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > I try to check my natural tendencies WRT OW/M posts. What got them > into the sticky situation is in the past. What can be dealt with in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Kitten Exactly! There isn't any reason to belabor the fact of the infidelity, at least not to the exclusion of dealing with the questions the poster had. It just seems as though all too often the infidelity becomes the focus of how we deal with some posters. "You are a lying, cheating sack of sh*t, and therefore we will tell you what a lying, cheating sack of sh*t you are until you give up and go away." I know that's an exaggeration, but you understand where I'm coming from, right? Lee >> I try to check my natural tendencies WRT OW/M posts. What got them >> into the sticky situation is in the past. What can be dealt with in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >sh*t you are until you give up and go away." I know that's an >exaggeration, but you understand where I'm coming from, right? Yeah, I understand what you're talking about. I've found that life's way too short to try to deal with things like that. There are too many things that *have* to be dealt with as it is. I'm all for finding effective solutions. Problem is, too many people see the search for effective solutions and think "blame game." Or is it just OS and YD who have been known to do that? Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Exactly! There isn't any reason to belabor the fact of the infidelity, > at least not to the exclusion of dealing with the questions the poster [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exaggeration, but you understand where I'm coming from, right? > Lee Well, I get that. But I think it bears repeating to many, if not all, of these posters, that the birthparents who were cheated on _have legitimate grievances_. It seems to me that if you can get behind understanding a little bit of what the other parent's feeling, it can pave the way to making things better. He's mad that dad won't let him come to games. Until OP and the BM come to some kind of terms with what BD is really pissed about, the chances are things won't improve until a lot of time has passed. rebecca > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you > here. We had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got > ripped about 57 new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's > ex-wife to get over it and start cooperating nicely. > > rebecca Also, I don't recall which woman you're speaking of, though I am sure I was probably one that was involved in the plastic surgery :-D I am not sure if it makes a difference in our reactions, but I do think a persons reactions and behaviors should moderate after three years. If the other situation you were speaking of was newer, I could see the reason for people going off on her. For me, I know I was much harsher towards MH than I am now, and how much of that has to do with the time factor, vs. the fact that she's backed off. Or perhaps she backed off as time went on? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Maybe Melissa is right about us being less harsh on men in these situations. I think she is probably right. As for me, it was more a personal decision to stay out of it for once, and that lasted only a few hours. Cal~ > I am not sure if it makes a difference in our reactions, but I do > think a persons reactions and behaviors should moderate after three > years. If the other situation you were speaking of was newer, I > could see the reason for people going off on her. Well, you would think. But people are different. SO's been split since 1998, he can still send his ex over the edge without even trying. People process stuff differently, some need therapy to get over it. And like I mentioned in another post, in my SO's situation, it took them 3 years to complete the legalities. So a lot depends on the situation. > As for me, it was more > a personal decision to stay out of it for once, and that lasted only > a few hours. I love that I can always count on you to lose your temper at the same time I do. Next time you go first, ok? rebecca >> I am not sure if it makes a difference in our reactions, but I do >> think a persons reactions and behaviors should moderate after three [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > since 1998, he can still send his ex over the edge without even > trying. People process stuff differently, some need therapy to get > over it. And like I mentioned in another post, in my SO's situation, > it took them 3 years to complete the legalities. So a lot depends on > the situation. Oh yes, I know MH can send me over the edge even now, but I think one of the things that helped me the most was coming to the full understanding that as much as I hate that woman, SHE isn't the one that betrayed me. He was. And, at least right now, MH has backed off a bit with DS. DD hasn't had any sort of relationship with either her father or the SM since February, so MH hasn't had a chance to be a butthead towards her for a little while now. (note- she took two calls from him last week, and initiated one in return- slight movement there). Since the antagonistic relationship between DD and MH isn't there ATM, MH has back off on DS as well and he finds her much easier to deal with. She even helped DS buy tickets to a ballgame with her credit card for father's day (he gave her the cash). That is huge. Again, how much it had to do with time, how much of it had to do with BD and MH knowing they got away with their scheme to cut support in half, or how much it has to do with having to deal with only DS who is much more laid back and more willing to ignore the rants and raves against me by MH I don't know. (phew- how's that for a run-on sentence?) >> As for me, it was more >> a personal decision to stay out of it for once, and that lasted only >> a few hours. > > I love that I can always count on you to lose your temper at the same > time I do. Next time you go first, ok? You realize it is all your fault because if you hadn't thrown that last bit in, I probably would've lasted a few more hours before saying anything, LOL. Cal~ (how's that for passing the buck;) ) > Well, you would think. But people are different. SO's been split since > 1998, he can still send his ex over the edge without even trying. People [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > rebecca LOL Holy crap I got you beat there! I just *yesterday* (Sunday?) got a nice 10 minute long phone call (that I let the voice mail take) from BM trying to rip me a new a.shole because she got snotty with me for telling her DH wasn't available and I hung up on her. Our atty btw told me to file a police report because it was a doozy! I swear in 10 minutes she musta called me every nasty name in the book (snicker) includinf accusing me of being a drug addict and having my OS while in jail. Yep, right off the deep end with that one LOL and they've been seperated since 93 Jen > Maybe Melissa is right about us being less harsh on men in these > situations. I think she is probably right. > Cal~ I think if it is happening there is an element of self-protection involved. This group is predominantly peopled by women. 'The other woman' is much more threatening than 'the other man'. Lee <snipped> >For me, I know I was much harsher towards MH than I am now, and how >much of that has to do with the time factor, vs. the fact that she's >backed off. Or perhaps she backed off as time went on? Which came >first, the chicken or the egg? Maybe she backed off over time due to your learning new ways of dealing with the situation because you could come here, vent, and get other people's perspectives? Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. -- Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Honestly, I'm _fascinated_ that people are being so gentle with you here. We > had a woman in your situation a year ago (?) maybe, she got ripped about 57 > new a.sholes for expecting her boyfriend/husband's ex-wife to get over it > and start cooperating nicely. sorry i'm late to the party but i am shocked too. and I have to go now... > You're right -- I AM holding him responsible to the extent that his > intimidating behavior causes every one to alter their preferences. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > LB but holding HIM responsible for HER behavior is not the key. He is who he is and that is not going to change. you have no control over him her or the kids. YOU only have control over YOU. and let me tell you right now... pitting a mom against a bio-dad cause you want to 'polish your halo' is not a good thing. do you have bio-kids or do these kids fill that space for you? >I have been in a committed relationship for over 5 years with a woman who is >a wonderful mother of four neat kids. She was still married when we first >started seeing each other. She separated from her ex roughly a year >afterward -- divorced him a year after that. <snip> >He has always viewed her as one of his possessions, and he blames me for >having lost her. Well, yeah. If you two had an affair for a year while they were married, why wouldn't he? Big duh there, pal. >Ever since I met her kids, he has ranted to them (and to her) about how he >"disapproves" of me being in their lives. They are terrified any time there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >kid having a minimum of one game per weekend (often more) weekends have >become a time in which I hardly see her - and he sees her all day long. And I'm not surprised you're insecure about that. I mean, she cheated on him when things got rough, why wouldn't she cheat on you? If my ex-husband was at sports activities with a person he cheated on me with, I'd be blowing a gasket all *over* the place. When somebody cheats on you, the aftermath is terrible. You imagine the two of them laughing at you, sharing secrets, having great sex... it feels *so* bad. Has she ever apologized to him? Have you? >After three years of my not being present at any of the kids' activities, >the ex has figured out that by increasing his involvement in the kids' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >leaf, he still refuses to tell anyone which games he is going to go to -- >often showing up unexpectedly. >My being excluded from a very important part of her life with her kids is >becoming increasingly painful for me. It has become a source of deepening >tension between us because she has now taken to seeing his increased >involvement in their respective lives as the act of a sensitive and caring >father - not the act of a supreme narcissist who is determined to keep what >is "his". Well, if he's talking to her without ranting and he's actively co-parenting, he's going to their sports stuff and being involved in their lives, and talking to them every night... I don't see that his motives matter all that much. Plus, I think it's the fact that he wants to exclude *you* that gets under your skin. And to that, I say suck it up. You had an affair with a woman with children that led to the breakup of their family. Surely you didn't think everybody was just going to "get over it"?? >So I ask - am *I* the one who is off base? Very, extremely, deeply off base. Anne |
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