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Family Forum / Parenting / Step Parents / January 2005New Member Description
Greetings, I'm Michael. Jess dragged me kicking and screaming here because I need some advice. I married my now ex-wife in March of 1995 and we seperated in March 2003. The divorce was finalized August 2004. We have a seven year old boy. We did not seperate amicably. His mother retained sole custody, as I had to move 2200 miles away to live where I could afford to and where I had family and friends. Complicating matters are his mother's political connections to local and county political entities. Because of finances, I've been unable to visit more than once since seperation. During the past 17 months communication between son and father has been sporadic, with communication such as it is, controlled by the mother. Son is understably upset with the changes in his life and at times has made that clear to me when we have been able to talk. But he has also used words and phrases that have to have either come directly from his mother or grandmother or have been overheard when his mother has been talking to others. Lately, phone calls (by court order am allowed to call any time, with Tuesdays and Sundays as regularly scheduled contact times) have been unanswered, with the answering machine picking up 4 out of 5 calls. Actual calls that have been completed have been 4 times total in the last two months. During the last week I have talked to my son twice, both times where short in duration - unless you count the long diatribe at the end of each by my ex-wife. Both times she was upset that I had explained to our son why he should not use bad language (he called his half sister and Jess "bitches") in describing any woman. He was upset, he felt that I was taking her side, meaning his sister, that I had replaced him with another child - this is the description of the situation by my ex-wife. She said that "I needed to get councilling before talking to our son again so that I would understand his feelings and appologise for leaving him" - again her talking. During every single phone call with my son over the last 17 months has, as Jess just finished reminding me, "involved your telling your son that you were sorry you were not there for him". Now, to the part where I am looking for advise. I am looking for suggestions that will help me communicate better with my son while limiting my contact with his mother. I can handle actual conversations with her about his school work, areas of interest that he might be shy talking about or descissions that require my input (whether he should play football this year or wait another year being an example) but I have trouble when she starts lambasting me about how I just talked to our son. Thanks, Michael > Greetings, > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > an example) but I have trouble when she starts lambasting me about > how I just talked to our son. When she starts with that I would say, "I see that you are upset. Please call me when you can speak to me without making personal attacks or comments". Click - hang up the phone. Never engage her when she is speaking to you inappropriately and whatever you do, don't get upset back at her. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" >Now, to the part where I am looking for advise. I am looking for suggestions >that will help me communicate better with my son while limiting my contact [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Thanks, >Michael Y'know, I'm sure because it's coming from your ex, you can't really see that what she's saying might make some sense. Your son is 7. You moved 2200 miles away. You have a new child--there with you, when you've only been back to see him once since 2003--yeah, just like a replacement. He's probably really hurt and really pissed off at you. It's not just that you're "not there for him" but that you really *did* leave him, and you have a whole new life that he's not any part of at all. He probably feels that you do owe him an apology for that. Simply not being there for someone and actually leaving them are two totally different things. Can you start with a straightforward apology for leaving your son? Without minimizing it or adding "but" at the end of it? Can you get to see him a little more often? Look for bargain airfares? Have him come out to see you and his new sister? Can you send him some tapes of you talking to him, or reading him a story? Can you make a video visit of you, your home and his sister to include him in your life? In a way that *includes* him, not shows him how separate you are (that might be tricky, but I think it could be done). When my parents moved 800 miles away, they sent my son, who was about 4 at the time, a book of photos they had taken of their house--each room--with captions underneath to make him feel part of their lives. Try to talk to your son without getting into it with your ex. Keep those conversations separate. If he only wants to talk a short while, keep it short and friendly. I used to try to hard to get my ex to see that all he had to do to win over our son when we separated was to *play* with him--not talk about serious, heavy father-son relationship topics, or God forbid, why our marriage went bad, but just play. He didn't get it then (probably because it was coming from me--his ex) and now he doesn't have a close, comfortable or loving relationship with our son at all. And he doesn't even have the extra problem of living far away--he's only about 10 miles away. I think you can win his trust back because he's still pretty young. But you have to make him a priority in your life, and from what you wrote, I don't see that he is. Maybe you feel like he is, but I'll bet he doesn't see it that way at all, and by not answering your phone calls or spending much time talking with you, he's showing you that he's moving on without you, just like you did with him. Deb R. > Y'know, I'm sure because it's coming from your ex, you can't really > see that what she's saying might make some sense. Your son is 7. You [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > being there for someone and actually leaving them are two totally > different things. I can understand he is feeling hurt and pissed off, I actually have no problem with him being upset with me. I do however have a problem with him using statements fed to him by his mother rather than his own thoughts. I have told him many times that he will never get into trouble for telling me how mad he is with me, but, his attacking Jess and the baby with words no 7 year old should use cannot be allowed. I asked him if he would use that word to his mother, he said no, I said it should be the same way with every woman or girl. > Can you start with a straightforward apology for leaving your son? I have actually apologised to him for leaving him, many times. > Without minimizing it or adding "but" at the end of it? Can you get > to see him a little more often? Look for bargain airfares? We are saving money so that we can make more trips to see him. > Have him come out to see you and his new sister? By the court order, he is not allowed to leave the state before he is 10 years old. His coming out here for any reason is not permitted. > Can you send him some tapes of you talking to him, or reading him a story? Can you make a video > visit of you, your home and his sister to include him in your life? > In a way that *includes* him, not shows him how separate you are (that > might be tricky, but I think it could be done). When my parents moved > 800 miles away, they sent my son, who was about 4 at the time, a book of > photos they had taken of their house--each room--with captions > underneath to make him feel part of their lives. I have sent letters so far, he says he never received them. I will be writting more anyway. Will also be adding a CD of pictures of the house, his sister and myself doing everyday type things (this was suggested to me by Jess a few weeks ago as well) > Try to talk to your son without getting into it with your ex. Keep > those conversations separate. If he only wants to talk a short while, > keep it short and friendly. I talk to him about anything he is willing to talk about, including the movie or tv show he is watching as we talk, the game he is playing or the cards he is collecting. I will ask questions about how he is doing in school and what he likes best as well, but try not to push it. > I think you can win his trust back because he's still pretty young. > But you have to make him a priority in your life, and from what you > wrote, I don't see that he is. Maybe you feel like he is, but I'll bet > he doesn't see it that way at all, and by not answering your phone > calls or spending much time talking with you, he's showing you that > he's moving on without you, just like you did with him. Well, I hope we can build a relationship that we will both enjoy, maybe it is all my fault, never claimed it wasn't. Thanks for the advise, I will be using some of it right away. Mike > I talk to him about anything he is willing to talk about, including the > movie or tv show he is watching as we talk, the game he is playing or the > cards he is collecting. I will ask questions about how he is doing in school > and what he likes best as well, but try not to push it. If you haven't also been in contact with his teacher and the school counselor, make sure to do that. See if they will forward a second copy of all mailings to you; if they haven't done that for other parents, send self-addressed stamped envelopes to make it easier for them to do so. > If you haven't also been in contact with his teacher and the school > counselor, make sure to do that. See if they will forward a second copy > of all mailings to you; if they haven't done that for other parents, > send self-addressed stamped envelopes to make it easier for them to do > so. I have talked to his school principal at least three times and each time the principal has thought sending me copies of his report cards and other mailing was a great idea - until she talked to my ex-wife who said out of the question. >I have talked to his school principal at least three times and each time the >principal has thought sending me copies of his report cards and other >mailing was a great idea - until she talked to my ex-wife who said out of >the question. Remind the principal that she is legally obligated to provide these materials. Often times principals don't realize this. You can also provide SASE's for the school to use when they send you updates. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > I do however have a problem with him using statements fed to him by his > mother rather than his own thoughts. Well, this is going to happen no matter what you want, so you might as well begin to think through a strategy for dealing with it. Kids that age, no matter what the situation, parrot their parents to some extent. In an acrimonious divorce, it gets worse. And really, if you are saying something like that to him, I'm not sure that's appropriate - it sounds awfully a lot like you don't respect his mom. Which may or may not be true, I'm just suggesting that you think about how that sounds to your son when you talk about his mother that way. rebecca > And really, if you are saying something like that to him, I'm not sure > that's appropriate - it sounds awfully a lot like you don't respect his > mom. Which may or may not be true, I'm just suggesting that you think > about how that sounds to your son when you talk about his mother that way. I never, ever talk to our son about my ex-wife. When it comes to our son, I always support the displine descissions she has made and never talk bad about her to him. My trouble with her is not his trouble and he will not be a party to it in that way. When asked why we divorced I always tell him that "mon and dad were not happy being together anymore and that it was best that we not be together anymore." I leave it at that, He does not have a need to know when it comes to all the nasty details of his mother and my relationship. Michael > I never, ever talk to our son about my ex-wife. When it comes to our son, > I always support the displine descissions she has made and never talk bad [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have a need to know when it comes to all the nasty details of his mother > and my relationship. okay, that's good. But you're still going to have to suck some parrot talk up, it's just a side effect of divorce. You know, another divorced dad once told my husband that the hardest thing about his being divorced was that his sons' mother continually inserted herself in his relationship with the kids. That, long term, everything else was bearable, but he had a really hard time with that. He said until the kids were old enough that he could go around mom, he just had to bite his tongue alot. Not real constructive advice, I guess, other than to tell you your problem isn't unique to your situation. rebecca >okay, that's good. But you're still going to have to suck some parrot talk >up, it's just a side effect of divorce. And you know it happene on both ends. I know that my SS has over the years repeated things SO and I have said in parrot speak because I've seen him do it. It makes BM as nuts as it makes my SO. It's funny though. What drives SO nuts is when SS sounds like BM. What drives me nuts is when SS picks up one of SO's annoying phrases, habits etc. or even worse, one of my own. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > "Talking points: they're true because they're said a_lot." > -Jon Stewart I fixed your post for you. (The alot thing makes my eyes bleed.) :-) ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" >> "Talking points: they're true because they're said a_lot." >> -Jon Stewart > > I fixed your post for you. (The alot thing makes my eyes bleed.) :-) thanks alot alot for pointing it out, Ger. <Snicker> (The snicker was for Jane.) rebecca >>> "Talking points: they're true because they're said a_lot." >>> -Jon Stewart [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > rebecca No problem! (huggle!) Ack!!! ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" >Well, I hope we can build a relationship that we will both enjoy, maybe it >is all my fault, never claimed it wasn't. Thanks for the advise, I will be >using some of it right away. >> >Mike I'm not saying it's all your fault. What I *am* trying to say is that your nice new life that is full and rich with school, a new baby, a new place to live and Jess is probably his worst nightmare at age 7. You have to approach him keeping that reality in mind. None of it matters to him except that you are no longer anywhere around where he can be a meaningful part of your life. I think you need to empathize with that, and find any way you can to include him and be his father. That's why I suggested the tapes--stories, chatting, etc., like daddies do with their young kids, and the pictures. I think those are more real to a 7 yr. old than letters that perhaps he can't even easily read himself and would have to ask his mother to read to him. Another thing my son liked when he was young was to get a special little package every now and then with a surprise in it. Just something little that he likes. My son used to absolutely thrilled with that kind of surprise mail. You mentioned sports cards--a couple packages of those, for instance. Something that says you're thinking of him and what he's interested in. And as much as you possibly can, don't use the phone calls with him to talk to his mother. I think when you do that, he'll start to feel that that's the real reason you called and he'll blow you off and hand the phone to his mother. Talk to her in a separate call, if you really have to talk to her at all. If every phone call with him ends in you and his mom fighting with each other, he'll associate your calls with stress, fighting and bad times. Deb R. > And as much as you possibly can, don't use the phone calls with him to > talk to his mother. I think when you do that, he'll start to feel [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in you and his mom fighting with each other, he'll associate your > calls with stress, fighting and bad times. I never call to talk to his mother, when he is done talking he hands the phone to her and she begins her 'discussion' with me. Wait, let me ammend that slightly, I have called on a few occasions to talk to her and only her, both times it was in regard to the details on the house that she was keeping, one time our son was home and I was asked if I wanted to talk to him, I of course said yes. The second time he was not at the house so I did not talk to him. Both times were outside the scheduled phone call times. Michael >I never call to talk to his mother, when he is done talking he hands the >phone to her and she begins her 'discussion' with me. Wait, let me ammend [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Michael When you are done talking, and before he hands the phone to his mother, does he say goodbye to you? If so, just say "bye, honey, I'll talk to you on (whatever day)" and hang up. On the scheduled phone times, keep the time for him. If his mother calls you back, schedule a different time for her (if you have to talk to her at all), preferably when he's asleep or not at home. If he just gives the phone to his mom without warning you that he's handing it off, just schedule a time with her as quickly as possible, and get off the phone. The idea is to keep his phone visits with you an enjoyable experience that belongs to the two of you alone. Let your ex know you're trying this. Tell her you went to counselling and they suggested it as a way to help your son deal with being so far away from you if you think that'll get her to agree. By the way, why don't you have joint legal custody, even if your ex has physical custody? That way, she'd have no right to tell the school not to send things to you and you'd maintain at least a little bit of decision making capability, and right to information, even from 2200 miles away. Deb R. > When you are done talking, and before he hands the phone to his > mother, does he say goodbye to you? If so, just say "bye, honey, I'll [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > your son deal with being so far away from you if you think that'll get > her to agree. Most of the time he just hands her the phone when he is done talking and the first indication that I get is when she begins to speak. I will try setting up seperate phone calls for her to talk when it is neccissary. > By the way, why don't you have joint legal custody, even if your ex has > physical custody? That way, she'd have no right to tell the school not > to send things to you and you'd maintain at least a little bit of > decision making capability, and right to information, even from 2200 > miles away. She would not agree to joint custody and her political connections in the county include all of the family court judges. It was literally impossible to get joint custody at this time. \ Michael >I have sent letters so far, he says he never received them. I will be >writting more anyway. Will also be adding a CD of pictures of the house, his >sister and myself doing everyday type things (this was suggested to me by >Jess a few weeks ago as well) Just a quick thought on this--maybe actual pictures instead of a CD would be better. That way he can pick it up and look at it whenever he feels like being connected with you. He can put it in a special place, he can show it to his friends, he can take it to school, look at it at bedtime, whatever. He won't need to go to the computer, which is kind of business-like. If you send tapes, send him a little tape recorder of his own that is easy to use and portable. Make it as easy as possible for him to "be" with you whenever he wants. Deb R. >Mike > Just a quick thought on this--maybe actual pictures instead of a CD > would be better. That way he can pick it up and look at it whenever [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Make it as easy as possible for him to "be" with you whenever he > wants. I'm a bit worried about sending pictures of Robyn and I-I'm worried that it could be considered tactless/heartless or whatever and make things worse. Jess >>Just a quick thought on this--maybe actual pictures instead of a CD >>would be better. That way he can pick it up and look at it whenever [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm a bit worried about sending pictures of Robyn and I-I'm worried that it > could be considered tactless/heartless or whatever and make things worse. Well, it could be seen that way, Jess. At the same time, there's got to be an inclusion of your SS in your lives to the extent that you can at this point and to try to keep things like you and his sister's existence out of the picture would, to me, be more of an exclusion type of thing. Tracey > Well, it could be seen that way, Jess. At the same time, there's got > to be an inclusion of your SS in your lives to the extent that you can > at this point and to try to keep things like you and his sister's > existence out of the picture would, to me, be more of an exclusion > type of thing. Yeah, but I'm trying to figure out a tactful picture that won't involve the little guy looking at it and going "wow, he really has replaced me", ya know? Screw it-I'll let Mike figure that one out, I'm about to strangle my algebra book. Jess >I'm a bit worried about sending pictures of Robyn and I-I'm worried that it >could be considered tactless/heartless or whatever and make things worse. > >Jess Then don't, for now. Follow his lead--if he asks for pics of his sister and you, send some. At first, I was thinking of just his dad and the house and yard, so he can feel connected and part of his dad's life. A scrapbook of your house, yard, car, etc. with pictures of his dad and captions saying "this is where I make my phone calls to you" or "this is where I eat my breakfast" or "here's me mowing the lawn" or "here's where you'll sleep someday when you're 10 and come here--what posters would you like on the wall, and I'll send pictures of that next time?" Just stuff like that. Deb R. > Just a quick thought on this--maybe actual pictures instead of a CD > would be better. That way he can pick it up and look at it whenever [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Make it as easy as possible for him to "be" with you whenever he > wants. And again, since I'm doing a very good blonde imitation this morning- The reason I suggested a CD of pics is because we have a digicam, and CDRW's are almost a dime a dozen now, as opposed to photo paper or a polaroid. I did suggest that once we get our family portrait done, that we get just a shot of him so we could frame that and send it to the little guy. Jess >The reason I suggested a CD of pics is because we have a digicam, and CDRW's >are almost a dime a dozen now, as opposed to photo paper or a polaroid. I >did suggest that once we get our family portrait done, that we get just a >shot of him so we could frame that and send it to the little guy. > >Jess But Jess, you're not talking about a million dollars here. It's really not *that* expensive to make a little scrapbook of pictures and I do think it would mean more to him to have something he had control over when and where he looked at it. It's so much more personal. Deb R. > But Jess, you're not talking about a million dollars here. It's > really not *that* expensive to make a little scrapbook of pictures and > I do think it would mean more to him to have something he had control > over when and where he looked at it. It's so much more personal. We can probably mix both ideas-do a CD of a lot of pictures, and then print out several ones we think he'll really like. Jess > I can understand he is feeling hurt and pissed off, I actually have no > problem with him being upset with me. I do however have a problem with him > using statements fed to him by his mother rather than his own thoughts. At 7, it's difficult for him to HAVE his own thoughts. Well, it's difficult for him to verbalize them and to identify them, I mean. To me, it sounds as if you're heading down the 'I don't like what you're saying so it obviously must be your mother who's putting those thoughts in your head' path. Not saying that that's not what's happening, but I don't think you're going to get very far if you don't get the mom out of the mix as much as possible and just deal with your son and his feelings. IMO and IME, a child who is not feeling abandoned/alone/mad is not going to made to feel that way by a parent. There has to be some of that feeling there to begin with or what the parent says or what the child overhears is not going to take root. You know what I mean? >I > have told him many times that he will never get into trouble for telling me > how mad he is with me, but, his attacking Jess and the baby with words no 7 > year old should use cannot be allowed. I asked him if he would use that word > to his mother, he said no, I said it should be the same way with every woman > or girl. Sounds good to me. (But don't forget, parents are not the only places that kids here those words. Just because he used them, doesn't nece- ssarily mean that he heard them used by his mom in reference to Jess and the baby.) <snip> > Well, I hope we can build a relationship that we will both enjoy, maybe it > is all my fault, never claimed it wasn't. Thanks for the advise, I will be > using some of it right away. I won't say that my husband and I have handled my stepkids and our relationship with them perfectly but my husband, at least, has seemed to weather the storm of disaffected <is that the word I want? It looks funny. :P> kids finally. He went through a period of not hearing from his two oldest sons, one for ~4 years, one for ~2 years, and now, for the past year and a half, has had regular, meaningful contact with both of them (well, the younger one is more semi-regular than regular, but occasionally it's meaningful.) I think (and it was even as much said) that the best thing that my husband did was to keep any mention of their mother out of whatever disagreement or discussions they had. (And, from my POV, it was to keep me out of it, too.) Even when the kids were seemingly *begging* for 'his side' of things, he didn't go there. Your son is young and there is no way that he can understand how a relationship going bad can affect people. IMO, probably the best thing you can do is to keep him talking as much as possible, show interest in him and his interests, show him that you remember what he's talked to you about. Tracey > Sounds good to me. (But don't forget, parents are not the only places > that kids here those words. Just because he used them, doesn't nece- > ssarily mean that he heard them used by his mom in reference to Jess > and the baby.) You know, that's a definite point. As I recall, 1st and 2nd grades were big on learning all the swear words. rebecca > > Sounds good to me. (But don't forget, parents are not the only places > > that kids here those words. Just because he used them, doesn't nece- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You know, that's a definite point. As I recall, 1st and 2nd grades were big > on learning all the swear words. No sh*t. > You know, that's a definite point. As I recall, 1st and 2nd grades were > big on learning all the swear words. To the point that he calls his father a "heartless bastard and a conniving bitch"? Jess&Mike >To the point that he calls his father a "heartless bastard and a conniving >bitch"? > >Jess&Mike Him learning the words certainly wouldn't surprise me. Being able to put them in context is another matter entirely. Kids your SS's age pick up alot on the school bus. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > Him learning the words certainly wouldn't surprise me. Being able to put > them > in context is another matter entirely. Kids your SS's age pick up alot on > the > school bus. Ok. :) Jess >>You know, that's a definite point. As I recall, 1st and 2nd grades were >>big on learning all the swear words. > > To the point that he calls his father a "heartless bastard and a conniving > bitch"? Jess <and Mike>, he's seven. To a lot <most?> seven year old's, calling someone a 'bitch' is emotionally equivalent to calling them a 'meanie'. As Wendy said, the context of the word just isn't there for them. Tracey > Jess <and Mike>, he's seven. To a lot <most?> seven year old's, calling > someone a 'bitch' is emotionally equivalent to calling them a 'meanie'. > As Wendy said, the context of the word just isn't there for them. *shrugs* No clue-we (Tim and I) never had a problem with sunshine having a foul mouth. Lemme see if I can explain this to him-he's doing the "great, so I overreacted [telling him not to use those words and letting it affect me]" now. Jess >>Jess <and Mike>, he's seven. To a lot <most?> seven year old's, calling >>someone a 'bitch' is emotionally equivalent to calling them a 'meanie'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > overreacted [telling him not to use those words and letting it affect me]" > now. No, no, no, no, no. Telling him not to use those words is an appropriate reaction. Letting it affect him is an understandable reaction. Just some of the assumptions coming from it <heard it from his mom, he actually means 'bitch' when he says the word, etc.,> aren't necessarily correct assumptions. Tracey >Jess <and Mike>, he's seven. To a lot <most?> seven year old's, calling >someone a 'bitch' is emotionally equivalent to calling them a 'meanie'. >As Wendy said, the context of the word just isn't there for them. > >Tracey Exactly. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > To the point that he calls his father a "heartless bastard and a conniving > bitch"? Yeah, okay. He's learning stuff from mom. He's pissed at Mike, feels abandoned. And mom's clearly not making it a priority to shield him from her own bad feelings. Whatcanyoudo? The answer is not much, unless mom is a generally reasonable and rational person who is temporarily gone 'round the bend. If she is, an approach to her about ratcheting down the hostility might work. If she's not, then you have to find your approach, and stick to it calmly, no matter what. The phone calls should be for just you guys, not for mom & dad to talk. Swearing and name calling is impolite and off-limits, no matter what mom says. Practice hanging up on Jess if it will make it easier to hang up on BM (-: . If he doesn't know Jess well, I'd concentrate on re-establishing a relationship with Mike. Mention Jess and Robyn casually, but not often. Call every scheduled time, even if the phone is _never_ answered. Email? Snail mail write him religiously - however often feels right. Daily. Semi-weekly. At least weekly. Postcards, cartoons, jokes, clippings. Buy YU-GI-OH cards, or whatever he's into, send one/a pack every now and again. Send him a disposable camera, and a return mailer, ask him to take pictures of something he's into, or some places he likes, or his homework or whatever. Do the same for him. And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but don't apologize all the time. It doesn't change anything, it's not making him feel better. Show him you still want to be connected by your actions, not an 'I'm sorry' over the phone every week, that just reminds him that you've moved on and left him there. If BM's not always a bitch, in a calm moment, tell her you're trying to figure out a consistent way to stay connected and does she have any suggestions about what you can do? rebecca > If he doesn't know Jess well, I'd concentrate on re-establishing a > relationship with Mike. Mention Jess and Robyn casually, but not often. > Call every scheduled time, even if the phone is _never_ answered. Email? I set up an email account for him just soon after I arrived in AZ. I told him all about it, told his mom all about it so that she could help him get to it. He was never allowed to access it. > Snail mail write him religiously - however often feels right. Daily. > Semi-weekly. At least weekly. Postcards, cartoons, jokes, clippings. > Buy YU-GI-OH cards, or whatever he's into, send one/a pack every now and > again. Am getting back into writing him, to make a journal type letter. Will see how it works. > Send him a disposable camera, and a return mailer, ask him to take > pictures of something he's into, or some places he likes, or his homework > or whatever. Do the same for him. Had never thought of this, we shall see how it works. > And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but don't apologize all the time. > It doesn't change anything, it's not making him feel better. Show him you > still want to be connected by your actions, not an 'I'm sorry' over the > phone every week, that just reminds him that you've moved on and left him > there. This will be hard since I do feel guilty that I could not take him with me. > If BM's not always a bitch, in a calm moment, tell her you're trying to figure out a consistent way to stay connected and does she have any > suggestions about what you can do? There is no way I can answer this without sounding bitter. Mike > > If BM's not always a bitch, in a calm moment, tell her you're trying > to figure out a consistent way to stay connected and does she have any >> suggestions about what you can do? > > There is no way I can answer this without sounding bitter. And honestly, I wouldn't waste my time, because if he gave her a line like that, she'd promptly respond with "well, You're the one that chose to move away". Jess >> And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but don't apologize all the time. >> It doesn't change anything, it's not making him feel better. Show him [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This will be hard since I do feel guilty that I could not take him with > me. Okay, I get that. But a constant apology gives him too much power. Fact is, life circumstances made you feel moving was the right decision. And it's hard as hell for you not to be with him every day, but his life circumstance meant him staying with his mother was the right choice for him. (Yeah, maybe the only one, but you don't want to dump your sh.t on him.) So the two of you have to make the best of it. And really, what's he hearing when you apologize - "sorry you weren't important enough for me to take with me" or "sorry I left you in your crappy life with your evil mom". I just don't think you saying you're sorry is making him feel good about anything. Also, and I'm not sure I can explain this right, but you're putting your own emotional baggage on him. You want him to tell you it's okay. And it's not okay with him. So I think some of your trouble right now is that you are putting him between expressing his honest feelings and feeling guilty that you want him to make you feel better. Let him be pissed. Let him tell you, let him pout. The most respectful thing you can do for the kid is let him feel it isn't okay that you moved without you trying to change his mind. When he says 'dad you are a heartless bastard' you say 'well, son, I know it's really hard for you that I'm not there every day. I wish I could be, but we've got to deal with the cards we've got. So even if you're super mad at me, I understand and love you and I'm going to call you Thursday anyway.' Because really, what's your end goal here? Is it permission from him to bail out on him? I don't think so, seems like it's to maintain a good relationship with him. Good relationships can stand some distance, but you - the adult - are going to have to be prepared to make the effort, even if his mom is a colossal obstructionist bitch. > > If BM's not always a bitch, in a calm moment, tell her you're trying > to figure out a consistent way to stay connected and does she have any >> suggestions about what you can do? > > There is no way I can answer this without sounding bitter. Oh, Mike, please. Nothing wrong with bitter (-: . I just suggested it in an effort to remember that not everyone lives my life. Sometimes former spouses really are sane and rational, and just messed up a bit by life/the divorce. Sometimes they're not. rebecca >And maybe I'm in the minority on this, but don't apologize all the time. It >doesn't change anything, it's not making him feel better. Show him you >still want to be connected by your actions, not an 'I'm sorry' over the >phone every week, that just reminds him that you've moved on and left him >there I agree completely. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > > You know, that's a definite point. As I recall, 1st and 2nd grades were > > big on learning all the swear words. > > To the point that he calls his father a "heartless bastard and a conniving > bitch"? My son (a couple years older than mike's son) called me a "bastard" just this very morning. (Sitch was that school is out for the day and we were planning on going to the pet store so he could buy himself a new pet rat....Apparently I wasn't moving fast enough for his tastes, he got insolent and impatient, and so I declared that we would not be going to the pet store today, period. Out came the "b" word). The point is, kids get angry at adults--sometimes for legitimate reasons, even--and use that kind of language to get their point across in a world where they often feel their wants/needs/feelings are not taken into consideration. It's not neccesarily mom feeding him either the words or the sentiments. Heya Mike! I'm not gonna quote because I know the situation. I see where Geri is coming from, but you're not in the same locale as your son, you really don't have much choice but to go through Ex to talk to son. If you had funds, you could fight her, but I kinda think if you had funds you would not have moved to be close to family, plus you would have been able to afford living in NY. Deborah is right, he feels abandoned. Can you quit school for awhile and take two jobs maybe just one class here and there until Ryan is old enough where it's mandated that he be able to fly out to visit you? Can you do *anything* (mow lawns, handyman jobs, whatever) on the side to make extra money to go see him? What about a journal? Write a journal of letters to him every day and send it to him once a week? Heather > Greetings, > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Thanks, > Michael > Deborah is right, he feels abandoned. Can you quit school for awhile and > take two jobs maybe just one class here and there until Ryan is old enough > where it's mandated that he be able to fly out to visit you? Can you do > *anything* (mow lawns, handyman jobs, whatever) on the side to make extra > money to go see him? I could quit school and get a second job, in fact I went to only part time to go to school. If I work full time I bring home less money due to taxes than I do if I work part time and go to school since financial aid and GI Bill are tax free. If I work full time while going to school I receive no finacial aid, meaning I cannot go to school. So I could work two jobs but I would lose the extra money made to taxes and I would also have my child support payments increased because of the greater income. > What about a journal? Write a journal of letters to him every day and > send it to him once a week? The journal thing is a good possibility, I haven't started one yet but it is a good idea. Thanks Mike "Michael Stouffer" <michaelstouffer@hotmail.com> wrote > > What about a journal? Write a journal of letters to him every day and > > send it to him once a week? > > The journal thing is a good possibility, I haven't started one yet but it is > a good idea. What about a website or a blog? He's young at 7, but pretty soon he's going to be able to access the Net from the school or library or home. Rupa Hmmmm.... I never got the OP, but AOL was a mess yesterday. >Because of finances, >> I've been unable to visit more than once since seperation. Wow. That must be hard on your son. >> During the past 17 months communication between son and father has been >> sporadic, with communication such as it is, controlled by the mother. Probably not much you can do about that. It's a problem when you live far away, and when the other parent is uncooperative. I wish I had a better solution to that but we never really found one. >Son >> is understably upset with the changes in his life and at times has made >> that clear to me when we have been able to talk. It's good that he can express that. >But he has also used >> words and phrases that have to have either come directly from his mother >> or grandmother or have been overheard when his mother has been talking to >> others. This stuff makes me nuts, but there's nothing you can do really. You hardly see or talk to the kid so of course Mom's behavior is going to have more of an impact. I've always found that offering an opposite example of how to behave is the best way to counter this. As your son gets older he'll be more able to see how both you and his mother behave and compare. >> During the last week I have talked to my son twice, both times where short >> in duration - unless you count the long diatribe at the end of each by my >> ex-wife. Hang up. Tell her to put it in writing. > He was upset, he felt that I was taking her side, >> meaning his sister, that I had replaced him with another child - this is >> the description of the situation by my ex-wife. Truth is he probably does feel that way, and right now his Mom's words are the only way he has to express that anger. Really the best thing that youn can do is teach him better coping skills when you do see him. He'll pick things up by example. >> Now, to the part where I am looking for advise. I am looking for >> suggestions that will help me communicate better with my son while [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> football this year or wait another year being an example) but I have >> trouble when she starts lambasting me about how I just talked to our son. I would try asking her to put her complaints in writing. With a new outlet she might not feel like she has to vent to you live in person. Really though you need to see your son more. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart When she starts with that I would say, "I see that you are upset. Please > call me when you can speak to me without making personal attacks or > comments". Click - hang up the phone. Never engage her when she is > speaking to you inappropriately and whatever you do, don't get upset back > at her. > > ~~Geri~~ Well the second part is easy, as Jess can attest I actually just listen when my ex-wife is yelling at me. It will take a bit to break the conditioning to be able to hang up on her, and the few times I have actually done that she has immediately called back to continue her rant. I do believe that if I can get out the reply you suggested, it will do one of two things. It will either piss her off royally so that we have to turn the phones of for a bit, or she will actually listen and cool down before we have to talk again. Either way it is a different approach to what has been tried in the past. Thanks Mike > Greetings, > > I'm Michael. Jess dragged me kicking and screaming here because I need > some advice. G'day Michael (and Jess) Well I read all the other advice that you were given and I was going to leave it alone but today I think ....nar... say it. That boy depends on you. You are his dad, his rock, his inspiration. Stop blaming others for things that have gone wrong. Just pull your finger out and make things happen! Get the money together and visit the little guy, ASAP! Oh yeah, just out of interest is it possible to drive out to see him, make it a family trip, camp out to save money etc? Just remember where there is a will there is a way. Amy > Oh yeah, just out of interest is it possible to drive out to see him, make > it a family trip, camp out to save money etc? We're talking 2200 miles-roughly 3667 km; mapquest has it at about a 5 day trip. Jess > We're talking 2200 miles-roughly 3667 km; mapquest has it at about a 5 day > trip. Have you looked into moving closer? Others have suggested things for building relationships with people they don't see regularly. I know that my children are really close to my family in Canada, largely because of the little parcels, the photo albums (include extended family members), cousin-connections, and because even as infants I made up a song that included the name of every member of my ex's and my family, so they knew all the names, faces, etc. when we went to visit. When we visit, we go for extended periods and stay on the island on a sand beach which is a recipe for wonderful family times. It's not that easy if you haven't someone on the other end facilitating the contact though. You may not ever be able to retrieve the situation, if you don't create the opportunity for more frequent contact. That will be difficult unless you move closer. Good luck Wendy T > Have you looked into moving closer? That would mean me putting my house on the market, and it would mean both of would have to take a vacation from school when we're both already working on time limits from the government (we get monthly grants from the Veteran's Administration for going to school, but they only last so long), and there's no guarantee that things would improve. Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >> Have you looked into moving closer? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Administration for going to school, but they only last so long), and there's >no guarantee that things would improve. Then those are your priorities (and I don't mean that as criticism). But any time you set priorities there will costs. Keeping school and your house has the cost of further distance from your stepson. Moving closer to SS means selling the house and difficulties finishing school. There isn't a cost-free solution. Vicki  SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > Then those are your priorities (and I don't mean that as criticism). > But any time you set priorities there will costs. Keeping school and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There isn't a cost-free solution. I know, and I'll support him if he wants to move closer, but the reality of it is that until we get out of school (at the least, I finish getting my master's), it would be significantly more problematic. Jess > In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There isn't a cost-free solution. No, there is no cost free solution. We had to decide if moving back would be the best solution long term, at this time it does not look that way. Things could change over time that change that outlook. But, getting our degrees is the best decission not only for the wellfare of my son but also for my daughter. Mike > It's not that easy if you haven't someone on the other end facilitating > the > contact though. You may not ever be able to retrieve the situation, if > you > don't create the opportunity for more frequent contact. That will be > difficult unless you move closer. We have talked about and looked into moving closer. Economically, there is just no way to do so at this time. As I have stated in earlier posts, I will be using many of the suggestions that have been made as far as photo albums, letter writing and tapes are concerned. I don't know if the relationship is retrievable, but I am going to make my best effort. Mike > I don't know if the relationship is retrievable, but I am going to make my > best effort. Mike, Of course it's retrievable, he's, what, 7? If he were 17 and this had been going on for a decade, then you would have to ask yourself that question, but he's 7. He's mad because you left, you just have to work past that. rebecca > We have talked about and looked into moving closer. Economically, there is > just no way to do so at this time. I have to be honest, I'm guilty of saying I can't afford to do x, y, or z myself, but recently I've begun to realise that I could do those things if I were prepared to give up other things, like my house, or job, or security in old age, or proximity to my children. Then it's a question, as Vicki said, of accepting that you've made choices about priorities. I was recently on a management course in which you had to write down the ten most important things you looked for in a job. Then you played a game where you had to give one up, and another, until you were left with only one. Work wise, for me, the most important thing was ethics. You could do the same thing for life in general, though. It may sound like a silly thing to do, but somehow the act of doing so does help to reconcile you to the choices and priorities you have but perhaps haven't really articulated the reasons for. For me, the life priority has always been my family and particularly my children, even to the extent of continuing to live in a foreign country (England) so that they would have time with both their father and I, despite the support network of family and job opportunities at home in Canada. The thing I'm saying is that the biggest battle is within yourself, because it's you who makes the choices and lives with the consequences. If it's any consolation, my partner, Barclay, moved out of the family home and hasn't seen his children since, and not for lack of trying or any issue of distance. He's been looking at father's rights groups to join, and maybe something like that could be useful for you too. Wendy T > I have to be honest, I'm guilty of saying I can't afford to do x, y, or z > myself, but recently I've begun to realise that I could do those things if [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > choices and priorities you have but perhaps haven't really articulated the > reasons for. I'm going to get really cold and practical here. My priorities are (not necessarily in order) my degree, our daughter, holding onto my house, and our relationship. I've been working on trying to get my degree for years, and I'm finally in a position where I'm over halfway to my first one. I'm not giving that up for someone else's child again, especially one I don't have a relationship with and who's demonstrated he doesn't want a relationship with me ATPIT. Getting my MSN will open up a lot of opportunities and will create the type of life I want for me and our daughter. I'm not putting my daughter at a disadvantage by moving away from our support network and into an area with an atrocious cost of living, where I don't know where any of the resources are located, where the atmosphere is very likely to turn extremely tense and hostile, and with my nearest support network 2200 miles away. I'm not giving up my house on a maybe. I expect this one to be a bit difficult to comprehend, but I'm not giving up the house Tim and I bought together and that I held onto even after he died on a "well, maybe I'll get to see him more often." I will support him in whatever he wants to do. > For me, the life priority has always been my family and particularly my > children, even to the extent of continuing to live in a foreign country > (England) so that they would have time with both their father and I, > despite > the support network of family and job opportunities at home in Canada. My life priority right now is doing something that keeps me out of the fast food or the telesupport industries. I want something that'll allow me to not have to borrow money to shop a Goodwill sale for my daughter's clothing. > The thing I'm saying is that the biggest battle is within yourself, > because > it's you who makes the choices and lives with the consequences. The choice is ultimately Mike's-if he wants to move back, I'll follow him after I've gotten my degree. I'll let Mike explain his reasons for moving out here to begin with. Jess > I'm going to get really cold and practical here. > > My priorities are (not necessarily in order) my degree, our daughter, > holding onto my house, and our relationship. Jess, no one's saying you guys are wrong to live where you are living, with the priorities that you have. And honestly? I'd worry a bit if you were all eager to give up your schooling, degree, etc. This is not your child, you have responsibility for a small child of your own. And conventional wisdom says that tense relationships between parents get better with _distance_, not with moving down the street. I live down the street, it adds a layer of tension that you have to manage when you're in a bad situation. It's just, at least initially, what I was hearing from Mike was a lot of "I can'ts". I can't visit more, got no money. Can't get calls through, mom's a bitch. Can't move back, can't have him come out. And the cold, practical fact is he doesn't have a choice. Mom *is* a bitch, he *does* live far away, and he *doesn't* have money. You have to work with what you've got, and right now he doesn't have much. It doesn't make him a bad parent, but it does mean he has to think a little harder about how to stay connected. rebecca > Jess, no one's saying you guys are wrong to live where you are living, > with the priorities that you have. And honestly? I'd worry a bit if you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > It doesn't make him a bad parent, but it does mean he has to think a > little harder about how to stay connected. Preaching to the choir, honey-I just needed a break from the singing. :) I just felt a little defensive, because the old part of me wants to throw it all out the window and do what we need to do so he can move there, and I have my "bad stepmommy" moments occassionally. Then I wake up or Heather smacks me. :) Jess >> Jess, no one's saying you guys are wrong to live where you are living, >> with the priorities that you have. And honestly? I'd worry a bit if you [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Jess Anytime girl, anytime. ;) Heather > The choice is ultimately Mike's-if he wants to move back, I'll follow him > after I've gotten my degree. I'll let Mike explain his reasons for moving > out here to begin with. Those are all reasonable priorities and they are yours. I'm not critical, I'm just saying that Mike's posts sound like he wants all of that too, but that he is having trouble reconciling his own choices with their affect on his other priority, his son. We watched a film called Touching the Void last night. It's a story of two mountaineers in their mid twenties who go climbing on their own in Peru. Good film. I mention it because there is a point in it where one of the characters is facing what seems like certain death, and he says "You have to keep making decisions, even if they are bad ones." That's true of the whole of life, not just mountain climbing. If we let indecision reign, or allow life to just drift over us carrying us in its tide, we never reconcile ourselves to the events that transpire. If we make conscious choices, no matter how difficult, then somehow the consequences are easier to live with. Wendy T > Those are all reasonable priorities and they are yours. I'm not critical, > I'm just saying that Mike's posts sound like he wants all of that too, but > that he is having trouble reconciling his own choices with their affect on > his other priority, his son. I think part of him is still having trouble reconciling that his choice to stay as long as he did wasn't the best one, and while this one is infinently more messy in the short term, this is what he should've done years ago. IOW, I think he's taking too much responsibility for this mess on himself and blaming himself entirely, when it's equal parts him and ex. He'll get to ponder that when he gets up. :) Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >I think part of him is still having trouble reconciling that his choice to >stay as long as he did wasn't the best one, and while this one is infinently >more messy in the short term, this is what he should've done years ago. > >IOW, I think he's taking too much responsibility for this mess on himself >and blaming himself entirely, when it's equal parts him and ex. It may be equal parts, but since his ex isn't going to be helpful or even reasonable, it's up to him to do what he can to mitigate all that damage. It's irresponsible to say "Hey, she's making it harder than it has to be, so oh well." It's not *fair*, no, it's not, but there it is. I know you didn't like Amy's reply and I thought she worded it aggressively, but it made me wince also because it's uncomfortably close to the truth. If his ex *does* marry again, you know she's going to encourage SS to consider her husband his "new dad." And with DH so far away, it could happen. It's something he has to consider. The fact is that, no matter what the reasons or the justifications, the son feels abandoned. From *his* point of view, fair or not, his dad went off and left him. He's angry. He will want to fill that void. He's not going to wait for his dad to finish his other, higher-priority goals. And his mom isn't going to help him remain connected in the interim, and in fact is likely to work *against* that. It's going to be hard. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > It may be equal parts, but since his ex isn't going to be helpful or > even reasonable, it's up to him to do what he can to mitigate all that > damage. It's irresponsible to say "Hey, she's making it harder than > it has to be, so oh well." It's not *fair*, no, it's not, but there > it is. In dealing with it, sure. But (I think) he's holding himself responsible for things she's doing; instead of saying "great, something else I have to deal with", he's saying "great, something else I caused" and sinking into that black hole and becoming apathetic. > I know you didn't like Amy's reply and I thought she worded it > aggressively, but it made me wince also because it's uncomfortably > close to the truth. If his ex *does* marry again, you know she's > going to encourage SS to consider her husband his "new dad." And with > DH so far away, it could happen. It's something he has to consider. Please. Distance or involvement has no bearing on whether she chooses to try that or not-how many people have complained of the same thing here? And that still doesn't change the immutable facts-the money's tighter than a twelve year old virgin in a chastity belt, it would only get tighter if we moved back there, moving back there would set some goals back if not entirely nix them, and there's no guarantee things would improve. We could move back and he could be in the same boat he is now. > The fact is that, no matter what the reasons or the justifications, > the son feels abandoned. From *his* point of view, fair or not, his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > connected in the interim, and in fact is likely to work *against* > that. It's going to be hard. No denying that, and Mike does need to do this stuff until we're in a spot to consider moving back out there. But he's got to be the one to decide to do it, and ultimately, it's going to be his relationship with his son. Jess >ck hole and becoming apathetic. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Please. Distance or involvement has no bearing on whether she chooses to try >that or not-how many people have complained of the same thing here? It would certainly make it easier. And it's really not about distance. Mike hasn't seen his son in two years. I'm trying to imagine not seeing one of my parents for two years as a kid. Wow. Long term relationships are manageable with kids, but not when they aren't seeing one another. Honestly Jess if Mike wants the dynamic to change it's going to have to involve him showing up. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > It would certainly make it easier. And it's really not about distance. > Mike [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Mike > wants the dynamic to change it's going to have to involve him showing up. Christmas at the earliest, most likely just after the turn of the year, then again in March over Spring Break, and after that, it'll depend on summer schedules. Jess > It would certainly make it easier. And it's really not about distance. > Mike [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Mike > wants the dynamic to change it's going to have to involve him showing up. I saw my son in May 2004 and yes the time before that the last time I saw my son was Feb 2003. Right now am looking at January 2005 before I can see him again. The custody agreement does not allow my son to leave the state of NY until he is 10, so his coming out here is not an option. Mike >>It may be equal parts, but since his ex isn't going to be helpful or >>even reasonable, it's up to him to do what he can to mitigate all that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with", he's saying "great, something else I caused" and sinking into that > black hole and becoming apathetic. And that's a bad place to be. Even if you can't get out of the 'Great, something else I caused' place, it's much better, IMO, to at least amend it to 'Great, something else I caused now what can I do to make it better' place. Tracey > And that's a bad place to be. Even if you can't get out of the 'Great, > something else I caused' place, it's much better, IMO, to at least > amend it to 'Great, something else I caused now what can I do to make > it better' place. And I'm not sure how to kick him to that place yet, or if I should just wait and let time do it. Jess Jess wrote: >I'm going to get really cold and practical here. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >Jess Wow, Jess. You guys are caught in such a tough situation. I know when my Nephew moved away he did tons of things to try and stay connected to his daughter. Letters. cards, care packages, phone calls, emails, photos, had all school stuff sent to them, and of course he flew her to him every time it was his visitation, and would see her as much as possible when he came back here to visit. He was gone for 2 years. He moved back here this past spring. Problem is those 2 years left a riff between father and daughter that doesn't look to be cleared up any time soon. In fact he hasn't seen her since Fathers Day, and that is when he got back. In the two years he was gone his daughter fell into a routine, as most kids do, and she resented it terribly when he came back and he expected to pick up where he left off. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way, especially when the child is older (like 10+). As kids get older their friends and activities begin to take up more of their time and family is somewhat relegated to holidays and when they need you. Its all part of growing up and learning to be an independant adult. Then ontop of that she is still very angry at him that he moved to begin with. He didn't have to move, he wanted to move. I don't know exactly why you and your DH moved, but I'd venture to say if it was for want rather than need there *might* be some resentment going on with his son, that could last a very long time. I don't want to sound all gloom and doomish (although I know I am), but the reason I am even responding with this is.... You say one of your top priorities is your R with your DH. Nephew and his wife are having a really really tough time in their marriage now. He is depressed and angry ALL the time, because he pretty much is missing and has missed his daughter's life from age 11 on. I don't think he blames his wife for the move, as he wasn't dragged kicking and screaming 1700 miles away, but he regrets it and there isn't anything she or their two babies can do to help him. So he's extremely unhappy and she is helpless. His marriage is suffering and his two little ones are too by extension. Just last weekend when they came over for Halloween, he told me moving away was the worst thing he ever did in his life. That there was nothing more important to him than his children and although he always knew that, other things clouded his thinking and he just figured, since kids are so resilient (or so they say), his R with his daughter would be just fine. Well it isn't. His ex, isn't one to try and get inbetween them, so he knows it isn't the ex causing the problem. I do understand your desire to live close to your support system. To finish your degree. To make sure you and your daughter have the kind of lifestyle you want for the two of you. I get all that. I just hope some day down the road your DH doesn't fall into the sadness and depression my Nephew has, if his R with his son doesn't ever come back to where he wants it to be. Honestly, everyone in our family talked to them about this stuff before they moved. They both felt they had a better chance at life living elsewhere. The COL was much lower where they moved to. His W wouldn't have to work and could be a SAHM to their kids. They wouldn't have to spend oddles of money to get to their fave place, WDW. They would be more comfortable without the stigma of the way their R began know by so many. Everything they said was true. Sadly everything we told them was true as well. They aren't talking divorce, yet. But she feels sooooo helpless and is nearing the end of her rope, I'm sure. I just gave them a name of a counselor that specializes in depression and family issues. I hope they go see him. I wish you and your DH well. I want to see things work out for you. I just felt it might be helpfull for you to see what *might* be on the other end if he stays that far away from his son for any length of time. My heart truely goes out to you. Respectfully, Indy > That boy depends on you. You are his dad, his rock, his inspiration. Stop > blaming others for things that have gone wrong. Just pull your finger out > and make things happen! Get the money together and visit the little guy, > ASAP! We are saving the money as quickly as we can so that another visit is possible. But, so you understand how tight money is, I had to file for bankrupsy the middle of last week. Believe me or not, but if We/I had the money for me to visit sooner or more often I would have done so. My relationship with my son is more important than money, but unfortunately, money is needed to maintain a closer physical relationship. We do not spend money on frivolous items, we rarely go out if it will cost money and we are always concious of whether the cost of something is really worth spending a dime on it. > Oh yeah, just out of interest is it possible to drive out to see him, make > it a family trip, camp out to save money etc? Jess already explained about the distance not alowing us to drive out for visits. Mike >> That boy depends on you. You are his dad, his rock, his inspiration. Stop >> blaming others for things that have gone wrong. Just pull your finger out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > we are always concious of whether the cost of something is really worth > spending a dime on it. And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. Probably, one day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be your son's rock, his inpiration, his role model. I hope you will be OK with that. Amy > And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. Probably, one > day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be your son's rock, his > inpiration, his role model. I hope you will be OK with that. > > Amy Jeez, amy. rebecca > And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. Probably, one > day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be your son's rock, his > inpiration, his role model. I hope you will be OK with that. Get a grip. He's not acting like a sperm donor and completely disappearing from his son's life. Either shut it or offer something constructive that doesn't involve money we don't have. Jess > And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. Probably, one > day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be your son's rock, his > inpiration, his role model. I hope you will be OK with that. Yes, you are right, there is a possibility that I will be replaced as my son's "rock", and as I see it, your solution is to drop everything, leave Jess and my daughter to move back to NY so that I can see my son every once in awhile when my two jobs allow me to. Oh, lets not forget that I will be sending child support to TWO locations then as well, lets make that THREE jobs. The reason I moved to AZ was because I could not, even with the job I had at the time, live in NY and support myself and pay the child support that was required for my son. I looked for anyway that I could do that before I left. I also had to face the fact that my ex-wife had the ability and the attitude to make life extremely difficult for me - as in there was a good possibility that she could have gotten me fired from my job, had me arrested or harassed by local police and as she did anyway, have a relationship with all the county judges that would have made the divorce even more painful than it ultimately was. Since my parents divorced when I was 5, I know that there is a good likelihood that my relationship with my son will be the same or worse than the one I have with my father, and since its taken 25-28 years for ours to get back to a really good relationship, I do know what I am looking at. I can hope that by working on it better than my dad did, I can at least cut the time down that will be needed to bring back a semblance of a relationship. BUT, in the meantime, I cannot and will not abandon Jess and our daughter to chase my relationship with my son. Is it fair to my son, no; is it choosing one child over the other, probably, but it is also the reality that will have to be lived with by myself and my son. >> And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. >> Probably, one day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > no; is it choosing one child over the other, probably, but it is also > the reality that will have to be lived with by myself and my son. Would it be possible to archive that post so that we could refer it to people who come to this group with a new partner, kids from a previous relationship and are considering having a kid with their new partner. This situation showcases things to consider before doing so. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > Would it be possible to archive that post so that we could refer it to > people who come to this group with a new partner, kids from a previous > relationship and are considering having a kid with their new partner. > This situation showcases things to consider before doing so. Sproglette as a priority only became a priority a year ago; his other reasons for leaving NY and not returning are still valid and would still be valid without sproglette in the picture. Jess >> Would it be possible to archive that post so that we could refer it >> to people who come to this group with a new partner, kids from a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reasons for leaving NY and not returning are still valid and would > still be valid without sproglette in the picture. What about the choosing between children issue he brought up? Granted the budget might still be tight, but isn't it tigher? I am not saying people shouldn't have second families. But there are a lot of considerations that people (I am not saying you) don't always consider and his post highlights some of them. Signature~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > What about the choosing between children issue he brought up? Granted the > budget might still be tight, but isn't it tigher? Actually, not really. Financial aid covers some of the costs for her, our VA checks went up last month, we're doing a lot of hand-downs, our medical care is the next best thing to free, and we use a ton of coupons. > I am not saying people shouldn't have second families. But there are a > lot of considerations that people (I am not saying you) don't always > consider and his post highlights some of them. Maybe I'm too flaky right now to see it. Ask me next week. Jess > I am not saying people shouldn't have second families. But there are a > lot of considerations that people (I am not saying you) don't always > consider and his post highlights some of them. Yeah, I kind of see your point, Geri. But really, whether Michael has more kids isn't up to his ex-wife. And the baby is a convenient and natural scapegoat for his current dilemma. But if mom weren't being so obstructionist, the money issue wouldn't be as problematic. C'mon, the kid's 7 and he can't leave the state? Even accompanied? That's pretty restrictive. Phone calls being avoided? Mom screaming as a tag-on to every call? He's not in the situation because he had another baby. He's in the situation, well (forgive me, Michael) he either picked badly when he married, or he ended it badly when he left. The number one consideration for me about having a family with a guy who already had a kid was whether or not I trusted that if we had kids, we would be able to cooperatively raise them. Which meant taking a good hard look at exactly what his contribution was to his relationship (e.g., lack thereof) with his ex, as well as what his expectations about being a father were. I'm with you that blindly procreating is a bad thing to do, but I don't think that Michael would have to chose between his children (any more than parents in intact families do, that is) if the other variables in the situation got sorted out. rebecca > Yeah, I kind of see your point, Geri. But really, whether Michael has > more kids isn't up to his ex-wife. And the baby is a convenient and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > restrictive. Phone calls being avoided? Mom screaming as a tag-on to > every call? To be perfectly fair to her, it's roughly a five hour flight, not counting time changes and with a tailwind. That's a respectable flight, even if you're used to travelling. For a kid who hasn't travelled, it'd be pretty rough.(nevermind that I'm breaking into a sweat thinking about being on a plane that long, and I've done international flights) Jess >> I am not saying people shouldn't have second families. But there >> are a lot of considerations that people (I am not saying you) don't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pretty restrictive. Phone calls being avoided? Mom screaming > as a tag-on to every call? Is there any way to get that court order about leaving the state changed? ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > Is there any way to get that court order about leaving the state changed? Ok, let's lay this out on the table so it's explicitly clear. She's the county clerk. Has been for ten years, and that was after she took the town clerk from her mother, who had been town clerk for ten years and county clerk for another eight years. Her brother is in charge of the third largest political party in the state (which isn't the same as his sister's party), and between the three of them, they've benched 90% of the judges in that county. The judge's law clerk told his attorney a week or so before he flew out to the hearing that it didn't matter that the only thing he wanted in the settlement was joint custody and his belongings (and that is literally all he wanted-he even took the majority of the debt and left her with the house and her retirement pension), he wasn't getting joint custody. The clerk was attacking him in the settlement hearing about "what kind of a man leaves his children for a whole year", and the judge told him he either took what his ex was offering, or she was going to order sole custody, supervised contact until the little guy turned 18, twice the child support, all the marital debt and he'd be lucky to get his belongings back. Jess > He's not in the situation because he had another baby. He's in the > situation, well (forgive me, Michael) he either picked badly when he > married, or he ended it badly when he left. Truthfully, I did marry badly, and it ended badly when I left. We decided to get married after knowing each other for a week on a cruise (references to the "Love Boat" will not be appreciated, thank you), I was in the military, had just been left at the alter a few months before; she had a previous marriage that had ended badly. During the marriage we constantly made the same mistake - we did not really communicate. We went on what we thought the other was saying rather than actually talking to one another. During the last 4-5 years we were together we both resorted to mental and physical abuse of the other. I will not try to assign percentages to who did what when or how much. Jess and I know and that is good enough here. Mike > Truthfully, I did marry badly, and it ended badly when I left. We decided > to get married after knowing each other for a week on a cruise (references > to the "Love Boat" will not be appreciated, thank you), Love Boat? Jess >BUT, in the meantime, I cannot and will not abandon Jess and our daughter to >chase my relationship with my son. Is it fair to my son, no; is it choosing >one child over the other, probably, but it is also the reality that will >have to be lived with by myself and my son. Mike, I think you have a tendency to see all this in black or white, can or can't. I don't see anyone suggesting that you abandon Jess and your daughter to be closer to your son. I do see a lot of people making suggestions of how you can try to bridge the gap, and include your son in a meaningful way in your life. I do see people trying to tell you that you need to find a way to see your son more often. Remember how long a week's vacation seemed when you were 7? Imagine how long 6 months or a year seems--like a lifetime. This is the crux of the matter--he's only 7, and was only what, 5?, when you left. The time you've been gone is forever to him, and if you can't find a way to see him (send him pictures, read him stories, give him phone contact that he enjoys rather than associating it with stress with his mother) you're going to be a fuzzy memory to him. How clearly do you remember things back from when you were 5 or 7? How many people that you only saw once a year when you were 5 or 7 are particularly close to you now? Perhaps you can find ways to become "unstuck" in your thinking about how to remain close to him--it's not all or nothing. I think you should consider just plowing ahead and trying some of these things right away, and trying them often. Surprise him. Make him happy in some little way--7 yr olds are still so easy to please. Oh, and try to think like a 7 yr. old in how you approach him. The more he can relate to you, and be with you without needing his mother to be involved, the stronger and more special your relationship will be. Make sure he can read your letters all by himself, make sure if you send email or cd-roms that he can use the computer all by himself--or choose a different way to communicate with him. Deb R. > Mike, I think you have a tendency to see all this in black or white, > can or can't. I don't see anyone suggesting that you abandon Jess and > your daughter to be closer to your son. I do see a lot of people > making suggestions of how you can try to bridge the gap, and include > your son in a meaningful way in your life. I do see people trying to > tell you that you need to find a way to see your son more often. Actually I did see a few people that seemed to be suggesting that the only viable course of action was to move back to be closer to my son since his mother was doing nothing to support a relationship between he and I. I think that I was being reasonable when I pointed out the pitfalls of that course of action. > Remember how long a week's vacation seemed when you were 7? Imagine > how long 6 months or a year seems--like a lifetime. This is the crux [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you only saw once a year when you were 5 or 7 are particularly close to > you now? I know that I will be replaced in my son's everyday life. Am I just giving up and walking away, no, not at all. I am trying to make sure that when he is ready, whenever that may be, that he will know that I am here for him, that I love him and that I am and will be accessable for him. > Perhaps you can find ways to become "unstuck" in your > thinking about how to remain close to him--it's not all or nothing. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you send email or cd-roms that he can use the computer all by > himself--or choose a different way to communicate with him. I am going to try all of the suggestions that have been offered (well not the moving one) and I will be trying them for the foreseeable future. Do I expect these miraculous results where he forgives all and we maintain the relationship we had before I left? Nope, I expect that after many years of trying, he /may/ be willing to develop a new relationship with me. All I can do is maintain the contact, see him whenever possible and let him know to the best of my ability that I love him. > I know that I will be replaced in my son's everyday life. Am I just giving > up and walking away, no, not at all. I am trying to make sure that when he [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > can do is maintain the contact, see him whenever possible and let him know > to the best of my ability that I love him. Okay, let me try to explain this one better. Michael, you are giving too much power to a child. Your attitude screams "okay, I did something so horrible you will never forgive me, I know you're going to replace me, I'm only going to hope that someday you'll like me again." You. Are. His. Father. You did what you feel is the best thing for all of you. Sometimes parenting makes you unpopular. He can be mad at you. He can be very mad at you. But. If you make _him_ bailing out of the relationship a viable choice, he might. That is such a self-defeating attitude. I know you're doing it to try to ease your pain at losing him. But if you walk into it this way, losing him becomes more of a possibility. It sucks that you live far away. It sucks that you and his mom aren't getting along right now. But think longer-term, here. How are you going to make it easier? Are you saving up so when he's 10, he can come see you regularly? When are you planning to fly back and see him? Are you going to get your degree and move back? Give him some idea of what your plans for the future are, and how they include him. Acknowledge his emotion, but don't let him think that _him_ bailing out of the relationship is an option. Because he's a kid, and he's trying to manage his own pain as much as you are trying to manage yours. He may still bail, that's a possibility. But hell, if you tell him it's okay, or that it's even a choice, you make it 100% more likely that he will. rebecca > If you make _him_ bailing out of the relationship a viable choice, he > might. That is such a self-defeating attitude. I know you're doing it to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to make it easier? Are you saving up so when he's 10, he can come see you > regularly? I'm trying to make it easier by staying in contact, not just throwing up my hands saying there is no chance so why try. We are saving as much money as possible so that I can fly back to see him as many times as possible as well as be able to walk into court in three years and fight for a more equitable visitation agreement that will allow him to come out here to visit as well as visit his grandmother in Texas. > When are you planning to fly back and see him? January > Are you going to get your degree and move back? We have talked about this and if the opertunity allows it we may very well move to NY after getting our degrees. > Give him some idea of what your plans for the future are, and how they include him. Right now,he does not listen to future plans, hard to blame him, but am hoping that with time he will hear more and understand that he is included in those plans. > Acknowledge his emotion, but don't let him think that _him_ bailing out of the relationship is an option. > Because he's a kid, and he's trying to manage his own pain as much as you > are trying to manage yours. I try not to let him think that his bailing is an option, I have not given up on him. Mike >> And before you know it another 17 months will have gone by. Probably, one >> day, *you* will be replaced. Some other guy will be your son's rock, his [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > choosing one child over the other, probably, but it is also the reality > that will have to be lived with by myself and my son. Jess thinks I am being unhelpful but I can't help it if I think you are making some bad decisions. Actually, I think you, Jess and the baby should have moved closer to your son long before this. You've got a nice bunch of excuses as to why you can't do that. I'm sorry but your Dad taught you well. Money *is* more important to you. Just so you know where I am coming from I moved interstate so my husband could be closer to his children. I made a lot of sacrifices to do that. Money was tight. We then went and brought more children into the world. It was *not* easy, but none of our 5 kids have ever felt abandoned or replaced or unwanted. IMO that makes it all well worth it! I would never suggest that you leave Jess and your new baby. What I would like you to do though is to open your mind to other options than the ones you have stuck in your head. Think outside the square. Of course if you are truly happy with your present choices then that is fine too. I accept that your values are not going to be the same as mine. You asked for advice so I gave it. What you do with it is up to you. Best of luck, mate. :) Amy > Just so you know where I am coming from I moved interstate so my > husband could be closer to his children. I made a lot of sacrifices to > do that. Money was tight. We then went and brought more children into > the world. It was *not* easy, but none of our 5 kids have ever felt > abandoned or replaced or unwanted. IMO that makes it all well worth > it! And when you did that, did you not also remove your son away from His father in the process? SignatureCal~ Change me to myself for email :-) > And when you did that, did you not also remove your son away from His > father in the process? ah, I do so love a little snappy repartee in ASSP. rebecca > ah, I do so love a little snappy repartee in ASSP. She's teething, and Tim's anniversary is tomorrow, so I'm in an absolutely wonderful, joyous mood right now. Are we feeling the peace, love and joy yet? :D Jess rebecca wrote in news: > "*Calinda*" wrote in message: >> And when you did that, did you not also remove your son away from His >> father in the process? > > ah, I do so love a little snappy repartee in ASSP. > > rebecca Well, I really dislike the approach Amy took with this, as if she is holier than thou about having moved with her new husband so he could be closer to his kids, meanwhile, she's moved her son away from his father and when she was discussing that previously, she made it sound like it was no big deal, because her ex is a jerk. She put her need to be with her new husband and his kids over the need of her son to be with his father on a regular basis. So, I really don't get where she feels she can be so nasty to J & M in this situation. I really don't. SignatureCal~ Change me to myself for email :-) > Jess thinks I am being unhelpful but I can't help it if I think you are > making some bad decisions. Actually, I think you, Jess and the baby should > have moved closer to your son long before this. You've got a nice bunch of > excuses as to why you can't do that. I'm sorry but your Dad taught you > well. Money *is* more important to you. I'm going to be extremely blunt right now. Is there something about this that isn't getting through to you? Is there something about she's a low-level county politician with the connections to prevent him from seeing his son *until his son turns 18* and the connections to toss him in jail that you're not getting? Is there something about "even with both of us working two jobs, we can't afford to live there" that's not getting through to you? You've heard Cal complain about the cost of living where she's at, and it's *just as high* where his son is at. Are you *honestly* suggesting we make ourselves homeless and unable to afford groceries just to be in a worse situation than we are right now? Jess > Is there something about she's a low-level county politician with the > connections to prevent him from seeing his son *until his son turns 18* and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > complain about the cost of living where she's at, and it's *just as high* > where his son is at. Okay, but are there not jobs or affordable places to live anywhere in between AZ and NY, somewhere where you could afford to drive to NY more frequently? Wendy T >> Is there something about she's a low-level county politician with the >> connections to prevent him from seeing his son *until his son turns [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Wendy T He would be looking at probably at least a five day drive from where they are. At least a three day drive (two if you drive all night, which I have done) from the center of the country. That would be *one way*. I don't know how much vacation time he has, but unless it is quite a lot, that would be pretty rough more than once or maybe twice a year - just time wise. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > Okay, but are there not jobs or affordable places to live anywhere in > between AZ and NY, somewhere where you could afford to drive to NY more > frequently? Not until we get our degrees-the whole northeast is pretty expensive. Jess >> Jess thinks I am being unhelpful but I can't help it if I think you are >> making some bad decisions. Actually, I think you, Jess and the baby [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm going to be extremely blunt right now. Suits me. I've been pretty blunt myself. :) > Is there something about this that isn't getting through to you? > > Is there something about she's a low-level county politician with the > connections to prevent him from seeing his son *until his son turns 18* > and the connections to toss him in jail that you're not getting? Are you telling me your political/judicial system is *that* corrupt? Yeah, I'm not really getting that. > Is there something about "even with both of us working two jobs, we can't > afford to live there" that's not getting through to you? You've heard Cal > complain about the cost of living where she's at, and it's *just as high* > where his son is at. I've never been to New York or anywhere in the US for that matter. Yeah, I am finding it hard to believe that there is nowhere suitable for a couple of decent folk like yourselves to settle closer to your (step)child. That doesn't have to be downtown NY, just somewhere closer. Is it impossible for you to rent out your house, shift your studies to another University and rent out a cheap one bedroom flat somewhere within driving distance of him? > Are you *honestly* suggesting we make ourselves homeless and unable to > afford groceries just to be in a worse situation than we are right now? Do you *honestly* think I would? :( Gee thanks. Amy >>> Jess thinks I am being unhelpful but I can't help it if I think you >>> are making some bad decisions. Actually, I think you, Jess and the [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Do you *honestly* think I would? :( Gee thanks. I can't say about NY, but if she is talking about NYC, I think the cost of living there is even higher than it is here. The cost of living here is roughly double what it is where I came from, which is fairly equivalent to Jess's state (unless she is in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area, which is somewhat higher, I believe) Settling in even a suburb of NYC is probably going to still cost big compared to where she is. The variation in cost of living expenses from one area to another in this country is HUGE. I can completely understand Jess's point on this. Signature~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "Cornhuskeress" > I can't say about NY, but if she is talking about NYC, I think the cost of > living there is even higher than it is here. The cost of living here is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of living expenses from one area to another in this country is HUGE. I > can completely understand Jess's point on this. When you say the cost of living do you mean food, power, water etc? Or are you talking about real estate? Amy > When you say the cost of living do you mean food, power, water etc? Or are > you talking about real estate? All of it. In a previous article, Kathy Cole <kathy@scconsult.com> said: >> When you say the cost of living do you mean food, power, water etc? Or are >> you talking about real estate? > >All of it. Take a look at http://www.homefair.com/homefair/calc/salcalc.html You put in a salary or wage and then two cities in the US. It gives you results of the form "If you make $X in City1, then you'll need $Y in City2 to maintain your standard of living." Just for illustration, I put in $100000 (which is a lot of money) in Flagstaff, Arizona. You'd need to make $217,000 to live in Manhattan to keep the same standard of living. OK, Manhattan is an extraordinarily expensive place to live; you can pay thousands of dollars in rent for a one-room (not one-BEDroom, but one ROOM) if it's a good address. There *are* places in NY which have a much lower cost of living, though. In Rochester, NY you can still buy a nice house in the city for *much* less than $100,000. You can get into the suburbs for $70K or up. You can have almost anything you want for $300K. Hey, if you move from Flagstaff AZ to Rochester, $84K will buy you what $100K bought in AZ! It's *cheaper* to live here, and we're 5 hours from NYC by car. Good universities, too, lots of 'em. Lots of snow, long cold winters, but beautiful summers; we're not known as The Flower City for nothing. Apparently it is theoretically possible to move from AZ to NY and get more for your money. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > There *are* places in NY which have a much lower cost of living, > though. In Rochester, NY you can still buy a nice house in the city [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > winters, but beautiful summers; we're not known as The Flower City for > nothing. Little guy is in Albany-isn't that four more hours from NYC? So a nine hour drive total? > Apparently it is theoretically possible to move from AZ to NY and get > more for your money. Yeah, if we're willing to do a nine hour drive every other weekend to see his son; the travel expenses alone would eat up whatever savings we have. Although I'm thinking that bit about lots of snow and long cold winters might be a dealbreaker-hazardous to my mental health or something. Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >Little guy is in Albany-isn't that four more hours from NYC? So a nine hour >drive total? No! Albany is between Rochester and NYC. We are about 4 hours from Albany, straight down the Thruway. And Albany isn't four hours from NYC. >> Apparently it is theoretically possible to move from AZ to NY and get >> more for your money. > >Yeah, if we're willing to do a nine hour drive every other weekend to see >his son; the travel expenses alone would eat up whatever savings we have. Four. My husband does a 5 - 6 hour drive every other weekend. I know all about it. >Although I'm thinking that bit about lots of snow and long cold winters >might be a dealbreaker-hazardous to my mental health or something. Yeah, the snow's a pain, all right. But they do a good job of keeping the Thruway clear. When it's dangerous, they close it, but that doesn't happen most of the time. Actually, once you're past the east end of Lake Ontario, the snow hazard goes down. And you can discover the genuine joys of cross-country skiing (very cheap hobby if you rent your skis, much cheaper than downhill) and snowshoeing. Ice-skating. Snowman building. The snow can be very pretty at times. But even with snow, he'd still get to see him a lot more often than he does now. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. Vicki Robinson wrote in news: >>Although I'm thinking that bit about lots of snow and long cold >>winters might be a dealbreaker-hazardous to my mental health or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > doesn't happen most of the time. Actually, once you're past the east > end of Lake Ontario, the snow hazard goes down. I have to say, Rochester NY is awesome in regards to their snow removal work. I don't know how other cities/towns in NY handle it, but I've lived in a lot of different cities, towns, even other countries and I've never seen it handled as well as Rochester. Several years ago, I had injured my foot right before leaving to chaperone a band trip to Rochester. I ended up in one of those velcro sandals they give you to wear when you can't put a shoe on. This was the week they had 45 inches of snow in less than 24 hours, and then more snow later that week. (1998 I think?). Anyway, by that weekend, with snow banks literally everywhere and I never got my foot wet or even damp.. they had all the walking and driving surfaces completely clear, with no puddles or anything. I was thoroughly impressed. They should give lessons on snow removal procedures, lol. SignatureCal~ Change me to myself for email :-) > And you can discover the genuine joys of cross-country skiing (very > cheap hobby if you rent your skis, much cheaper than downhill) and > snowshoeing. Ice-skating. Snowman building. The snow can be very > pretty at times. This makes me sad. I miss snow. (Plusi it bums my that SD will never know the joys of a snow day.) Signature~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > Yeah, the snow's a pain, all right. But they do a good job of keeping > the Thruway clear. When it's dangerous, they close it, but that > doesn't happen most of the time. Actually, once you're past the east > end of Lake Ontario, the snow hazard goes down. I can't speak for Rochester, but in Canada snow doesn't stop anyone. When I worked in London, some of the lecturing staff cross country skied into work. When I lived in Ottawa, people skated to work on the frozen canal. Living in England, I miss the seasons. Wendy T > But even with snow, he'd still get to see him a lot more often than he > does now. > > Vicki This is true, Jess/Mike. Once a month even is better than once/twice a year. Heather > This is true, Jess/Mike. Once a month even is better than once/twice a > year. Since Mike's immersed in the Hell of Teething to give me a break...;) It'd be a big maybe-we were tossing it around again this afternoon, and one thing he pointed out is that our VA checks are contingent on us being enrolled in school for the coming month. If we're not enrolled, we don't get the check. So we lose roughly 1800 right there. The other things to consider are that Ryan is completely in control of the visitation-whether it happens, whether he wants his mother there, whether he wants me there, where he wants to hold visitation, all of it; there's also the political situation; Heather, I've told you about those 27 pages-what do you think she could/would do if he landed on the ground? Jess > "Cornhuskeress" >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Amy All of it, though when I said (where I live) my cost of living where is live now is double what it was where I used to live, for real estate I should have clarified and said that is triple to quadruple in cost. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > When you say the cost of living do you mean food, power, water etc? Or are > you talking about real estate? COL in it's entirety varies wildly in the US. Food, for instance. Here in Hawaii? $6 for a gallon of milk that, in most other places, is, what, $3? $2.59 for a loaf of bread, $1.29 or less in other places. A six pack of brand name soda costs what a 12-pack of soda costs in Minnesota. We're in a different situation in that we can shop at military stores, but, if we had to shop out on the economy like we had to when we lived in Minnesota, it would cost us over twice the amount of money we spent on food there. Tracey > I can't say about NY, but if she is talking about NYC, I think the cost of > living there is even higher than it is here. The cost of living here is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of living expenses from one area to another in this country is HUGE. I > can completely understand Jess's point on this. I'm in Tempe. :) We stayed out of Snotsdale, and moving into Phoenix itself was impratical because both of our jobs were out here. Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >I'm in Tempe. :) We stayed out of Snotsdale, and moving into Phoenix itself >was impratical because both of our jobs were out here. If you lived in Rochester, you'd need $33,309 to have the same standard of living that you have for $35,000 in Tempe. I don't understand why your credits wouldn't transfer if you moved to another university. If you present school is accredited, it's likely that the huge majority of them *would* transfer over, especially if you finish a pre-professional program there, and then enter a nursing program here. The University of Rochester has Strong Memorial Hospital, which is affiliated with the University's medical school (which is also very good). There are other nursing programs at other local colleges, too. And we have a lot of them. You can buy a lot of house here for $100,000. I'm not asking why you won't live in Rochester. But I am pointing out that there are intermediate solutions between staying in AZ and living under a bridge in NYC. If you came to Western NY, you'd still be far enough away that the ex couldn't make life miserable for you, but you'd be within driving distance of any place in NY state. The Northeast is not uniformly expensive to live in. You might choose to stay where you are, and that is of course your decision. But you do have alternatives, if you're open to them. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. >If you lived in Rochester, you'd need $33,309 to have the same >standard of living that you have for $35,000 in Tempe. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Vicki Jess, Vicki's right about Rochester. I just came back from there, and I was blown away at the (cheap) cost of real estate. I know you can survive the winters--they ain't lovely, but you live through them. I spent 4 years there in college. And Rochester isn't 9 hours from Albany. More like 4. Also Rochester isn't the only inexpensive part of NY state. There are loads of affordable locations, and a *lot* of colleges. I think there's a SUNY campus around every corner. Doesn't Alfred have a good nursing program? I remember some Alfred nursing students used to live in the RIT dorms when I was there. There's a lot to offer in NY state. Nice countryside, wines, lots of art and culture, universities, and cities to visit if you don't want to live in them. There are mountains, lakes, rivers if you like whitewater boating, Lake Ontario, and you can easily get to Canada, or visit Niagra Falls. I've almost talked *myself* into moving back there! Deb R. > And Rochester isn't 9 hours from Albany. More like 4. I thought Rochester was south. *shrugs* > Also Rochester isn't the only inexpensive part of NY state. There are > loads of affordable locations, and a *lot* of colleges. I think > there's a SUNY campus around every corner. Doesn't Alfred have a good > nursing program? I remember some Alfred nursing students used to live > in the RIT dorms when I was there. Real estate is cheaper, utilities are significantly more, housing taxes are significantly higher (twice as much, counting the increase just voted in), the unemployment rate is higher, the schools are a third again the cost as compared to here, but Rochester has us beat on health care, which is surprising. > There's a lot to offer in NY state. Nice countryside, wines, lots of > art and culture, universities, and cities to visit if you don't want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I've almost talked *myself* into moving back there! I don't doubt that it's a very nice state (and when we go there, I *am* going shopping), but I don't see it as very realistic to move back there when finding a job will be significantly more difficult, and while real estate is incredibly cheap there (my house would only be ~80 grand there?! wow), everything connected to the house will go up. Not to mention all the other disadvantages. I'll talk to Mike, see what he says and find out if I'm missing anything. Jess >I don't doubt that it's a very nice state (and when we go there, I *am* >going shopping), but I don't see it as very realistic to move back there [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Jess Rochester is just one option. NY is a very big state. Just for example, there's a CC that has a nursing program in Binghamton, NY (Broome CC), and it's part of the SUNY system. They offer a lot of programs. I'm sure it's very affordable especially to in-state residents, and transferrable to a 4 yr. program. (I have an old BF on the faculty there, that's how I heard about it.) Binghamton is on the PA border. It's not a particularly spectacular looking place, but it's close to a lot of beautiful parts of NY. It's under 150 miles to Albany. It's cheap. If you thought moving closer could possibly be an option until your SS was old enough to leave the state (just 3 years, after all), then there are a *ton* of options. Oh yes, and there are online nursing programs, too. You could take them anywhere in the US. University of Phoenix has one, for example, and I believe it's fully accredited. Deb R. And it would only be for 3 years, and you wouldn't have to sell your house Jess!! Heather >>I don't doubt that it's a very nice state (and when we go there, I *am* >>going shopping), but I don't see it as very realistic to move back there [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Deb R. > And it would only be for 3 years, and you wouldn't have to sell your house > Jess!! Yes, I would. I have a VA guaranty on it, but the condition to the guaranty is that it be my *primary* residence. Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >> And Rochester isn't 9 hours from Albany. More like 4. > >I thought Rochester was south. *shrugs* Noooooo. We're on the southern shore of Lake Ontario. Boating, fishing, swimming, jet-skiing, kayaking. The Genesee River runs through the heart of downtown, and there is the Irondequoit Bay for more sheltered water activities. We're about 80 miles from Niagara Falls, and getting to Toronto is a snap. The suburban schools are good; I live in a blue-collar suburb that isn't renowned for its schools in this area, but they still offer over 20 AP courses. One of my kids got a 1570 on her SATS. The othe got 1430. Stevie entered Mt. Holyoke with 22 credits, all earned through AP courses. Laura's taken Idunnohowmany AP exams, and gotten 4s and 5s on all of them. Clearly, the school is doing something right in prepping these kids to compete, and there are suburbs around here with even better schools. Property taxes *are* high. That's true. But there again, it depends on where you live. I think we pay about $2K in taxes on our little house. You *can* pay lots more. Location, location, location. And, as Cal says, our snow removal is awesome. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > Property taxes *are* high. That's true. But there again, it depends > on where you live. I think we pay about $2K in taxes on our little > house. You *can* pay lots more. Location, location, location. Wow.. 2000. for the year! I pay that per quarter :-( > And, as Cal says, our snow removal is awesome. Completey amazed me. I don't know how they did it! But at the time I was so grateful considering the stupid foot injury. I fell down my stairs.. and my foot got caught underneath me.. so I basically rode down the stairs on my foot. Tried to get out of the chaparone gig, but no one was available to fill in on such short notice. I no longer have any feeling left in part of that foot, including the two smallest toes. A bad thing, being diabetic. SignatureCal~ Change me to myself for email :-) > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wow.. 2000. for the year! I pay that per quarter :-( Hawaii taxes are a joke. The house we rented, that was offered for sale at $395,000? The owner paid $48. A year. Tracey >>>Property taxes *are* high. That's true. But there again, it depends >>>on where you live. I think we pay about $2K in taxes on our little [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Tracey But...how's the snow removal there, Tracey? ;^) Kardu >>>>Property taxes *are* high. That's true. But there again, it depends >>>>on where you live. I think we pay about $2K in taxes on our little [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But...how's the snow removal there, Tracey? ;^) Snow removal is great. Would hardly believe it had snowed, it's gone from the streets so fast. :P Tracey In a previous article, "*Calinda*" <Calinda@me.com> said: >> Property taxes *are* high. That's true. But there again, it depends >> on where you live. I think we pay about $2K in taxes on our little >> house. You *can* pay lots more. Location, location, location. > >Wow.. 2000. for the year! I pay that per quarter :-( Well, like I said, you can pay lots more. I'll bet your house is nicer than mine, too. >> And, as Cal says, our snow removal is awesome. > >Completey amazed me. I don't know how they did it! But at the time I >was so grateful considering the stupid foot injury. We have to be good. Living south of a huge body of water, with the Canadian air coming down from the north, we get a lot of snow. Lots and lots of it. There are times where you wonder where they're going to put more; sometimes they dump it into the river, but they avoid that because of the use of road salt. Most large parking lots have giant mountains of snow in them all winter. Yeah. Lots of snow. >I fell down my stairs.. and my foot got caught underneath me.. so I >basically rode down the stairs on my foot. Tried to get out of the >chaparone gig, but no one was available to fill in on such short notice. >I no longer have any feeling left in part of that foot, including the two >smallest toes. A bad thing, being diabetic. Yowza. Sympathies, that must have hurt. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. >> If you lived in Rochester, you'd need $33,309 to have the same >> standard of living that you have for $35,000 in Tempe. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > I've almost talked *myself* into moving back there! I have been there and I would totally live there compared to here. (Of course anywhere, except Cleveland or Detroit is probably better than here.) There are some of the prettiest houses I have ever seen. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > I have been there and I would totally live there compared to here. (Of > course anywhere, except Cleveland or Detroit is probably better than here.) > There are some of the prettiest houses I have ever seen. Hey, Detroit's not that bad! > > I have been there and I would totally live there compared to here. (Of > > course anywhere, except Cleveland or Detroit is probably better than here.) > > There are some of the prettiest houses I have ever seen. > > Hey, Detroit's not that bad! I wouldn't live in Detroit. We're only about an hour from there, and our "local" TV stations are the Detroit stations, so we get all the breaking news, etc. There's no way I'd live there. Lori ODL. Detroit's not even in the top three. Little Rock is the third city in the US with the most crime. The worst is St. Louis and Atlanta is second. Heather >> > I have been there and I would totally live there compared to here. (Of >> > course anywhere, except Cleveland or Detroit is probably better than [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/2/04 > ODL. Detroit's not even in the top three. Little Rock is the third city > in the US with the most crime. The worst is St. Louis and Atlanta is > second. I feel better now-we had a suicide by cop last week, and then someone else got shot last night (robbed a store for frigging BEER of all things and started revving the car like he was going to run the cop down), so now we've got six officers on PAL while they get investigated. Jess I still wouldn't live there. In fact, we moved to the city we are in now from Flint, MI, and I'd never go back there to live, either, for the same reasons, though at a lesser degree than Detroit. Lori > ODL. Detroit's not even in the top three. Little Rock is the third city in > the US with the most crime. The worst is St. Louis and Atlanta is second. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/2/04 > > Hey, Detroit's not that bad! > > I wouldn't live in Detroit. We're only about an hour from there, and our > "local" TV stations are the Detroit stations, so we get all the breaking > news, etc. There's no way I'd live there. There are numerous parts of the city that are very nice, and others that are not, so I think it's a mistake to generalize from the worst of the news. (I live about a mile from the city myself; when I posted to Geri originally, I was thinking more about the whole tri-county area.) Signaturehttp://www.theocracywatch.org/ > If you lived in Rochester, you'd need $33,309 to have the same > standard of living that you have for $35,000 in Tempe. We're making about 28k/year here. > I don't understand why your credits wouldn't transfer if you moved to > another university. If you present school is accredited, it's likely [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (which is also very good). There are other nursing programs at other > local colleges, too. And we have a lot of them. It's accredited, but the nursing program at the CC I'm in based its' program requirements on what ASU would accept for nursing students to do a fast track through the program. The nursing program there might accept my credits but still require me to go through their specific program requirements. Mike's still at the bonehead english and intermediate algebra stage, so him transferring isn't as hairy. > You can buy a lot of house here for $100,000. This house would sell for enough to pay off the mortgage, which would leave us with our VA checks in hand if the timing worked out fine. > I'm not asking why you won't live in Rochester. But I am pointing out > that there are intermediate solutions between staying in AZ and living [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You might choose to stay where you are, and that is of course your > decision. But you do have alternatives, if you're open to them. We do have alternatives, but the disadvantages to me outweigh the advantages. Jess Snotsdale TMML! ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > Snotsdale > > TMML! ? Jess >> Snotsdale >> >> TMML! This made me LAFF! ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" But they have such great SHOPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh Geri, btw. I went to Hot Springs mall last night, and they have a brand new Christopher & Banks so of course I thought of you. Heather > Snotsdale > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > But they have such great SHOPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Oh Geri, btw. I went to Hot Springs mall last night, and they have a > brand new Christopher & Banks so of course I thought of you. I hate you! :D ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! > But they have such great SHOPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Oh Geri, btw. I went to Hot Springs mall last night, and they have a > brand new Christopher & Banks so of course I thought of you. When are you coming out again? I'm hitting up Chandler Fashion Mess at the end of the semester (I'm getting a notetaker stipend and an xmas check). :) Jess >I can't say about NY, but if she is talking about NYC, I think the cost of >living there is even higher than it is here. The cost of living here is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >living expenses from one area to another in this country is HUGE. I can >completely understand Jess's point on this. There's a lot of upstate NY that's remarkably affordable, *and* within a day's drive of NYC. Not commuting distance, but a few hundred miles rather than 2200 miles. NY isn't just NYC in cost. The variations are huge. Just a f'rinstance. I'm not saying pack up and leave. I *do* think J&M are stuck in a bit of all or nothing thinking here. There are a whole bunch of things that can work or help the situation, from the extreme (moving) to the everyday (more contact by pictures, tapes, etc.). Deb R. > I *do* think J&M are stuck in a bit of all or nothing thinking here. > There are a whole bunch of things that can work or help the situation, > from the extreme (moving) to the everyday (more contact by pictures, > tapes, etc.). Not really-Amy Lou just threw me into a fit with her attitude, and that's what I'm still in a snit over. As far as the pictures and stuff, he's starting that already. Jess > Are you telling me your political/judicial system is *that* corrupt? Yeah, > I'm not really getting that. I just explained the political system he has to deal with. Yes, it is that corrupt. Would you like the phone number for his attorney so she can confirm it for you? > I've never been to New York or anywhere in the US for that matter. Yeah, I > am finding it hard to believe that there is nowhere suitable for a couple [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and rent out a cheap one bedroom flat somewhere within driving distance of > him? Ok, if I rent out my house and the VA finds out about it, they'll take the house back and I'll owe the remainder of the mortgage to the government. I *really* dislike the thought of owing Uncle Sam over a hundred thousand dollars, especially when I've spent the past two years now (wow, two years) cleaning up almost five grand in debt. We could shift our studies, sure-it would be much easier for him now, since I'm literally a semester away from the nursing program. My studies would likely not transfer over-I might end up repeating tw years of classes over again. Remember, we're talking 3700km here. A "cheap" one bedroom apartment costs at least as much as my mortage, more in areas that would be suitable for two children and close the universities. That's not getting into utilities, groceries, gas. > Do you *honestly* think I would? :( Gee thanks. You just did. I've researched the cost of living out there,and with Mike bringing in 35k/year, he was still 4-600 short every month. If he took a second job, he'd be required to pay 17% of that income for child support as well, which would leave him in the same boat. I don't have a job skill that would command that much-all of my experience has been fast food or tech support, and while I'm at the upper level of tech support, it's still not enough for the northeast. I'm not selling my house to move into a "cheap" apartment and to be significantly short every month, to be in a tense/hostile environment and for him to still not get to see his son. Now, the next time you want to spout off some bullshit that you patently don't believe in, make sure you've listened to what I've had to say. I don't say "I can't do it" very often. Jess >Now, the next time you want to spout off some bullshit that you patently >don't believe in, make sure you've listened to what I've had to say. I don't >say "I can't do it" very often. > >Jess Jess you can. You don't want to. And you know that's fine. I've been there, and you know I wouldn't be willing to move either. But if you don't want to move and Mike wants things with his son to be better then you do have to figure out a way for him to see his son more often. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart > Jess you can. You don't want to. No, we can't. We don't have the cash in hand to do it, and we wouldn't have the cash there to survive. If we could've found a way to work it, he'd still be there and I'd be moving out to him. > And you know that's fine. I've been there, and you know I wouldn't be > willing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > son > more often. We're working on that. He should be able to fly out sometime around christmas/new year's, and again over spring break. The summer's going to depend on what's going on then. Jess >> Are you telling me your political/judicial system is *that* corrupt? >> Yeah, I'm not really getting that. > > I just explained the political system he has to deal with. Yes, it is that > corrupt. Would you like the phone number for his attorney so she can > confirm it for you? As I don't understand your system I cannot offer you any advice but surely the rest of the group can have something to say about this? Corruption is bad! Surely there are people (journalists, attorneys, men's groups etc) around who would be more than willing to take on those guys on Mike's behalf. >> I've never been to New York or anywhere in the US for that matter. Yeah, >> I am finding it hard to believe that there is nowhere suitable for a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dollars, especially when I've spent the past two years now (wow, two > years) cleaning up almost five grand in debt. What is VA? Did Tim leave you the house in his will? Is it specified that you have to live in it otherwise you can't have it? What about selling it? Is that allowed? Mmm sounds tricky. > We could shift our studies, sure-it would be much easier for him now, > since I'm literally a semester away from the nursing program. My studies > would likely not transfer over-I might end up repeating tw years of > classes over again. Why don't you check it out so you know what your options really are? >Remember, we're talking 3700km here. Yeah its a long way. What's your point? That it will cost a lot to get there? I'm sure it will. A "cheap" one bedroom apartment > costs at least as much as my mortage, more in areas that would be suitable > for two children and close the universities. That's not getting into > utilities, groceries, gas. I'm not getting your point. Are you saying you just don't want to live in a one bedroom cheap apartment or are you saying you don't have enough money to do it? >> Do you *honestly* think I would? :( Gee thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > significantly short every month, to be in a tense/hostile environment and > for him to still not get to see his son. From what I have understood of Mike's situation with his ex she is mad because he moved away and doesn't get to spend much time with their son. Wouldn't moving closer be giving her what she wants? Wouldn't the tenseness and hostilily therefore improve? > Now, the next time you want to spout off some bullshit that you patently > don't believe in, make sure you've listened to what I've had to say. I > don't say "I can't do it" very often. I'm not quite sure why you are so mad at me. You said you couldn't do something and I've questioned it, that's all. Usenet and the fact that I live in a completely different society to you tends to blur things for me. Vicky said I sounded aggressive. I don't mean to be. I'm just an uneducated Aussie who has absolutely no writing skills whatsoever. I'm really quite a nice person. :-) Amy > As I don't understand your system I cannot offer you any advice but surely > the rest of the group can have something to say about this? Corruption is > bad! Surely there are people (journalists, attorneys, men's groups etc) > around who would be more than willing to take on those guys on Mike's > behalf. Again, between her mother, her brother, and her, they've put 90% of the judges in that county on the bench. Now what exactly did you think he was going to accomplish with that kind of situation? > What is VA? Did Tim leave you the house in his will? Is it specified that > you have to live in it otherwise you can't have it? What about selling it? > Is that allowed? Mmm sounds tricky. Veterans Administration; vets that are discharged honorably (or other than dishonorably) get certain benefits-a loan guaranty on the principal residence is one of them. The condition to getting the loan guaranty is that the residence be your primary residence and not a rental property. The VA doesn't care that I'm living here (after all, I'm paying the mortage and living here), but I need to not touch the financing on this house or rent it out or I lose the guaranty, and there's no way in hell I could qualify for a loan on my own credit. > Yeah its a long way. What's your point? That it will cost a lot to get > there? I'm sure it will. Not just that it will cost a lot to get there, it'll cost us more to live there and it could very easily cost us our educations and still not accomplish anything. > I'm not getting your point. Are you saying you just don't want to live in > a one bedroom cheap apartment or are you saying you don't have enough > money to do it? We don't have the money to do it. > From what I have understood of Mike's situation with his ex she is mad > because he moved away and doesn't get to spend much time with their son. > Wouldn't moving closer be giving her what she wants? Wouldn't the > tenseness and hostilily therefore improve? You're obviously not paying much attention-their relationship was abusive, which is why he left. It goes way beyond merely "being mad because he left." > I'm not quite sure why you are so mad at me. You said you couldn't do > something and I've questioned it, that's all. Usenet and the fact that I > live in a completely different society to you tends to blur things for me. > Vicky said I sounded aggressive. I don't mean to be. I'm just an > uneducated Aussie who has absolutely no writing skills whatsoever. I'm > really quite a nice person. :-) Spare me-you moved your son away from his father and you're proud that they manage to see each other three weeks out of 52. If you really believed in the advice you were giving me, you either wouldnt've moved or you'd be finding ways for them to see each other more often; to top it off, you're refusing to listen and you're asking the same questions I've answered before. Jess "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> > Spare me-you moved your son away from his father and you're proud that > they manage to see each other three weeks out of 52. If you really > believed in the advice you were giving me, you either wouldnt've moved or > you'd be finding ways for them to see each other more often; to top it > off, you're refusing to listen and you're asking the same questions I've > answered before. Whats up, your nipples giving you a hard time? :( Poor you! In my situation When we lived in the same city it was a case of my son's Dad not being interested in more contact than a day and a half per fortnight and most of that was in fact his mother babysitting for him. I asked him what he thought about us moving away and he was all for it. When we moved away they got to spend entire weeks together. Yes it averaged out to three per year. 30 days per year tops. I can assure you if it wasn't for my help the two of them would have no contact whatsoever. My ex is not the sort of man who wanted a kid around. The bonus was that my DH got to live 3 hours drive from *his* kids. This man really wanted to spend time with his kids. If you and Mike don't want to get closer to Mikes son, fine. Don't go lashing out at me. That only makes it look like you are feeling guilty. Amy Yeah, and you claim you are a nice person! Dear heavens..I'd hate to see what you'd post if you were a bitch. SignatureCal~ Change me to myself for email :-) > Yeah, and you claim you are a nice person! Dear heavens..I'd hate to see > what you'd post if you were a bitch. Killfiles, people. Signaturehttp://www.theocracywatch.org/ > Whats up, your nipples giving you a hard time? :( Poor you! Wow, you're beyond ignorant. Poor baby. > If you and Mike don't want to get closer to Mikes son, fine. Don't go > lashing out at me. That only makes it look like you are feeling guilty. I guess it's too much to expect you to know how to read. Jess >> Whats up, your nipples giving you a hard time? :( Poor you! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I guess it's too much to expect you to know how to read. Boy are you crabby! Well at least its not the nipples. I wouldn't wish that on anyone! I raised three boys and not one ever had a problem with teething, so yes, I am quite ignorant in that department. Hope she feels happier real soon (you and Mike too). :))) Amy >>> Are you telling me your political/judicial system is *that* corrupt? >>> Yeah, I'm not really getting that. The northeast part of the country: MA, NY, PA especially still have a large amount of the "old boy network" in place. It really is "who you know" rather than what you know as far as getting a political job of any kind - including the elected ones. > As I don't understand your system I cannot offer you any advice but surely > the rest of the group can have something to say about this? Corruption is > bad! Surely there are people (journalists, attorneys, men's groups etc) > around who would be more than willing to take on those guys on Mike's > behalf. When I went to talk to a councilor about my situation, I was able to get 3 free counciling sessions and a good attorney for about half price. I was also given a pamphlet about a fathers group but was told by the councilor not to put much faith in the group since the courts contrarey to common belief still favored the mother in all but the most awfull circomstances. I was literally told that unless the ex had been convicted of murdering someone I would not get custody. >>> I've never been to New York or anywhere in the US for that matter. Yeah, >>> I am finding it hard to believe that there is nowhere suitable for a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> within driving distance of him? > Why don't you check it out so you know what your options really are? I used to work for one of the Community Colleges in Albany for a base salary of $29,000 plus another "garenteed" 5 thousand in overtime. My child support at that payrate would have been $825 a month before rent on a small one room apartment ($800 rent), utilities (gas, electric and phone $350 a month), car insurance ($230 a month), food ($300 a month) gasoline ($120 a month): total $2525. Then add the credit card bills: total monthly payment of $1200. Divide $35,000 by 12 (even though I only get the over time during a threee month period really) $2960. Subtract 3725 from 2960 and WOW! there seems to be a shortfall of $735 a month! Add to that fact, that I could not get that type of job again - these are civil service jobs - each one is controlled by a politician somewhere, and MAYBE you could start to understand why I could not and will not be able to afford to live in NY State. I make $10 an hour now, IF I was able to make that much in any part of NY with the skill sets I have currently, I would be surprised. Security work in NY pays on average 8 dollars an hour. > I'm not getting your point. Are you saying you just don't want to live in > a one bedroom cheap apartment or are you saying you don't have enough > money to do it? Without someone committing murder at some point a family of 3 cannot live in a 1 bedroom apartment. > From what I have understood of Mike's situation with his ex she is mad > because he moved away and doesn't get to spend much time with their son. > Wouldn't moving closer be giving her what she wants? Wouldn't the > tenseness and hostilily therefore improve? Well, I can see you have understood very little then. The marriage was ABUSIVE, not her being a little pissy because I left. I STAYED 4 years too long. She was an abusive, hypocritical, all controlling woman that I truly believe received pleasure at making me feel like I had caused her irreparable harm by saying hello to a neighbor without asking permission first. The 'tenseness' as you put it, would not improve. In fact the first thing that WILL happen if we were to move back into the state would be her calling her Police Chief friend and having a restraining order placed on me and Jess. And if you think that I am exaggerating any of this, PISS OFF! Always, Mike "Michael Stouffer" > When I went to talk to a councilor about my situation, I was able to get 3 > free counciling sessions and a good attorney for about half price. I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I was literally told that unless the ex had been convicted of murdering > someone I would not get custody. I am not suggesting you go for custody. I think you deserve to get visitation rights though. Uninhibited reasonable visitation with your own son. <snip> > I used to work for one of the Community Colleges in Albany for a base > salary of $29,000 plus another "garenteed" 5 thousand in overtime. My > child support at that payrate would have been $825 a Boy are you in the wrong country! My ex earned $40,000 when we had child support set at less than $400 per month. Over a decade later he must be earning $80,000 plus (probably much more) and still only pays less than $400 per month. month before rent on a small one room > apartment ($800 rent), utilities (gas, electric and phone $350 a month), > car insurance ($230 a month), food ($300 a month) gasoline ($120 a month): > total $2525. Then add the credit card bills: total monthly payment of > $1200. Divide $35,000 by 12 (even though I only get the over time during a > threee month period really) $2960. Subtract 3725 from 2960 and WOW! there > seems to be a shortfall of $735 a month! Gee that car insurance is a killer! Our best car is valued at less than $17 000 and we pay less than $500 insurance for it for the entire year! > Add to that fact, that I could not get that type of job again - these are > civil service jobs - each one is controlled by a politician somewhere, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with the skill sets I have currently, I would be surprised. Security work > in NY pays on average 8 dollars an hour. Wow. Australia really is the lucky country. I recently returned to the workforce after a decade of being a SAHM, my skills are pretty limited, my qualifications are only basic technical college level and I am earning over $20 per hour. >> I'm not getting your point. Are you saying you just don't want to live in >> a one bedroom cheap apartment or are you saying you don't have enough >> money to do it? > > Without someone committing murder at some point a family of 3 cannot live > in a 1 bedroom apartment. My family of 3 (which expanded to 5 during the school holidays - the kids were aged 6, 8 and 10) lived in a two bedroom holiday shack with an outside toilet for over a year. >> From what I have understood of Mike's situation with his ex she is mad >> because he moved away and doesn't get to spend much time with their son. >> Wouldn't moving closer be giving her what she wants? Wouldn't the >> tenseness and hostilily therefore improve? >> > Well, I can see you have understood very little then. You must not be explaining it very well then. The marriage was > ABUSIVE, not her being a little pissy because I left. I STAYED 4 years too > long. She was an abusive, hypocritical, all controlling woman that I truly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > calling her Police Chief friend and having a restraining order placed on > me and Jess. If that is the case then why didn't you say so in the first place? You said it was the money that was stopping you. Make up your mind, man. > And if you think that I am exaggerating any of this, PISS OFF! You have my sympathy. It is obviously a very frustrating and weird situation for you to be in. > Always, Mike Always what? So unfriendly? Geeze. Its usenet, mate, you don't have to take it all so personally. Amy > Without someone committing murder at some point a family of 3 cannot live in > a 1 bedroom apartment. Well, I'll disagree. A family of 3 can live in a 1 bedroom apartment without someone killing someone else. It's been done before, it's being down now, it will be done in the future. Now, if what you're trying to say is that *you* don't want to be part of a family of 3 living in a 1 bedroom apartment or chaos and mayhem will ensue, that's different. And I'm right there with ya on that. :P A comment from Vicki earlier in this thread sticks out in my memory. Let's see if I can find it real quick...<pause> Aaah..here it is... > Then those are your priorities (and I don't mean that as criticism). My husband was in your position from the first day of his divorce and even earlier. When his divorce was final, his oldest kids were about 12, 10 and 6. He lived in WA state, they lived in CO. Within a couple of years, he was living in DC, they were in upstate NY. And, for the last 10 years, it's been different states, but still long distances that kept him from seeing his oldest kids more often than once or twice a year and, at times, it was multiple years before they were in the same room. He has faced the distance problems, the keeping-a-relationship- going-when-there-are-long-periods-when-you-haven't-seen-your-kid<s> problems, the money problems, etc. He also had the option of quitting what he loved to be able to be closer in distance to his kids, with a lot of the same reasons you have for not doing it. The thing that *I* wish he had resolved in his own mind was that he wasn't a bad person for deciding the way he did and that just because some people would have made a different decision does not mean that he is a lesser person than they are. The guilt he felt/feels about the decisions he's made colored, is coloring and will probably always color the relationship he has with his older kids. One thing I would caution you on, Mike, is not to let the distance between you and your son keep you from parenting him in the ways that you can parent him and to not let it lead you in to parenting him differently than you will parent your daughter. In our marriage, it has caused many problems. Tracey > My husband was in your position from the first day of his divorce > and even earlier. When his divorce was final, his oldest kids were [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > him differently than you will parent your daughter. In our marriage, > it has caused many problems. Thanks Tracey, I'll keep this all in mind. It helps alot in trying to put everything in perspective. Mike > One thing I would caution you on, Mike, is not to let the distance > between you and your son keep you from parenting him in the ways > that you can parent him This has kinda been sticking in my mind (especially since Sunday, 'cuz the little guy was watching a movie during the phone call), because I see him doing a bit of "well, how'm I supposed to parent over the phone when all he has to do is hand the phone to his mother", and I haven't really been able to articulate an answer to that one. Jess > This has kinda been sticking in my mind (especially since Sunday, 'cuz the > little guy was watching a movie during the phone call), because I see him > doing a bit of "well, how'm I supposed to parent over the phone when all > he has to do is hand the phone to his mother", and I haven't really been > able to articulate an answer to that one. 'Parenting' isn't just teaching a kid stuff, or telling them what to do, or disciplining them. Sometimes it's just focusing your entire attention on them, and what they're doing, what they're interested in. Children that age very strongly equate attention with love, it's why they act out to get it so much. Tell him to go rent whatever movie it was, and watch it. Then he'll have something else to talk to the kid about. I frequently read books geared to kids my SS age, because if he hasn't read it, he's planning to read it or he's heard about it. He thinks I'm cool because I've read all the good 3rd grade books ;-p rebecca >> This has kinda been sticking in my mind (especially since Sunday, >> 'cuz the little guy was watching a movie during the phone call), [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > rebecca My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to her. We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is cracking her up) and next on the agenda is *Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing*. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! >My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to her. >We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is cracking her >up) and next on the agenda is *Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing*. > >~~Geri~~ We did the Fried Worms book when my son was that age. He also liked Sideways School books and Goosebumps. Mike could tape himself reading one of these books, send them to his son a couple of chapters at a time, and enclose a copy of the book along with the tape so his son could follow along. Maybe the son could send back tapes of his own stories to Mike--send him a tape recorder of his own. Another thing we did around that age, since my son was obsessed with basketball, was to each pick a team to root for when a game was on TV. We'd really get into it--having a good, friendly rivalry going. That could be done remotely over the phone. Maybe make a plan in advance and send along some team stuff--a pennant or some sports cards or a hat to get the game started. Send a box of gametime snacks to have on their special game night. Maybe even they could each pick a team to stick with through a whole season, and send stuff back and forth to each other. My son used to like to draw basketball players, make them or make them out of fimo. That stuff could be fun to send back and forth. How about a picture that he draws part of, sends to Mike, Mike adds to it, sends it back to his son, etc? Could be fun. Just trying to think brainstorm ways to remotely "play" from 2200 miles away... Deb R. >> My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to >> her. We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Just trying to think brainstorm ways to remotely "play" from 2200 > miles away... The serial tape idea is a really good idea. I think "cliffhangers" like this appeal to kids this age. (Heck, they appeal to adults. Remember when Stephen King released *The Green Mile* in chapters? I could hardly wait until the next one came out.) Send one every three or four days, or something like that. Then he is looking forward to hearing from you again. Signature~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! I think those are good ideas, too. I would try something like that, I bet Mike's SS would love it. Heather >>> My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to >>> her. We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > something like that. Then he is looking forward to hearing from you > again. > My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to her. > We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is cracking her > up) and next on the agenda is *Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing*. > > ~~Geri~~ You're not the only one, my son is in third grade and I still read to him, just because it's become a night-time ritual. I can't recommend reading to kids enough, I can't remember when I started with mine, I think it was when he was still somewhat prone to trying to chew on the book, but he can read very thick books now and *loves* to read. Those books that you mentioned were some of my favs when I was little, I thought Fudge was so funny. Heather > "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" > > "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! >> My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to >> her. We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > little, I thought Fudge was so funny. > Heather OMG, I can so related to the big brother. The other day, I saw a copy of *The Island of the Blue Dolphin* and I think that will be a good one to read, too. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! Oooooh I loved that one too! All of these my teachers would read to us then I just had to have them, plus whatever else the authors had written. Heather >>> My SD is a fourth grader and likes to read, but I still also read to >>> her. We are reading, *How to Eat Fried Worms* right now (which is [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! > Oooooh I loved that one too! All of these my teachers would read to > us then I just had to have them, plus whatever else the authors had > written. > Heather My favorite book read by a teacher was actually read by a student teacher to us for 30 minutes after we would come in from recess. It was *Harriet the Spy*. I wanted to be her. I have all four of the HTS books for SD already. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! My mom never lets me live down the time I came to her and asked, "What is men-stroo-a-tion?". I think I read the margaret book in second grade, my mom was like, lost for words for a few moments. Gotta love Judy Blume.... I loved Harriet the Spy too, my fav part was where she made the list of all the things to do to get back at all the mean kids. H >> Oooooh I loved that one too! All of these my teachers would read to >> us then I just had to have them, plus whatever else the authors had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! Which reminds me-do whatever it is you quit smokers do-Mike smoked his last this afternoon, and he's about to drive me fraxin' nuts. Jess > Which reminds me-do whatever it is you quit smokers do-Mike smoked > his last this afternoon, and he's about to drive me fraxin' nuts. > > Jess Get one of those tazer thingies and every time he is snarky give him a little shock. Should get him right in line. ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! In a previous article, "Cornhuskeress" <cahuskerfans@sbcglobalGOBIGRED.net> said: >> Which reminds me-do whatever it is you quit smokers do-Mike smoked >> his last this afternoon, and he's about to drive me fraxin' nuts. > >Get one of those tazer thingies and every time he is snarky give him a >little shock. Should get him right in line. Good idea. And then also get him some Nicorette gum. It saved my life, and my family's life when I was quitting. It takes the edge off of the craving. Just don't *chew* it like regular gum, it'll give you heartburn. He should chew it enough to soften it, then tuck it up between his cheek and gum for a while. It really works, and I liked it better than the patch because it's not a continuous infusion of nicotine, you only use it when you need it. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > Get one of those tazer thingies and every time he is snarky give him a > little shock. Should get him right in line. I'll try that. Jess > Which reminds me-do whatever it is you quit smokers do-Mike smoked his last > this afternoon, and he's about to drive me fraxin' nuts. Put him on a plane to Albany for a week. Only half-joking there--I successfully quit 2 years ago and scheduled the first week during a business trip where all the time on planes and in airports and hotels in a strange city would have made it more challenging to buy ciggies or smoke them, and also took me away from all my usual patterns and routines that trigger the urge. > Put him on a plane to Albany for a week. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > patterns > and routines that trigger the urge. He does still need to finagle with the ex to get all his stuff out..... Better not-I couldn't spring bail. ;( But yeah, I pretty much kicked him out of the house for a bit last night to make him go walking; if he can get past these first three days, he'll be over the hump. And of course, I've already thrown out all the ashtrays I could find, and trash pickup was this morning. :) Jess >> Put him on a plane to Albany for a week. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jess Tell him I sympathise, I smoked my last one on Sunday. Yesterday was a bitch but I'm not so bad today. Nikki In a previous article, "Nikki Murphy" <nik@impactwp.com> said: >Tell him I sympathise, I smoked my last one on Sunday. Yesterday was a bitch >but I'm not so bad today. It's a long haul, though. It was a couple of years before the occasional yearning for a smoke went away. (Not the constant craving, that ended relatively quickly.) But it's pernicious. Don't think, in five years, that you can have one when you go out with friends to the pub. You'll be a full-time smoker again within a month. It never goes away. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > In a previous article, "Nikki Murphy" <nik@impactwp.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Vicki Yeah, that's the bugger of it. I gave up for 4 months in 2002, a couple of months in 2003, then this year did two weeks in March. Each time I've been a fool, this time I'm determined not to cave. Ever. Nikki >>Put him on a plane to Albany for a week. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > make him go walking; if he can get past these first three days, he'll be > over the hump. You know what, Jess? Don't go with that attitude. The 'three days and you're over the hump' thing. I once spent two weeks in a smoking cessa- tion class, did the patch, had the log, did the 'what else can I do when I get the urge to smoke' and had not had a cigarette in two weeks when, one night, my husband asked me how my day had went and I said that it had been a tough one and that I *really* wanted a cigarette. He commented 'It's been two weeks, Tracey', like I couldn't have had a bad day because I hadn't had a cigarette in two weeks. I immediately went out and bought a pack of cigarettes. Support, support, support. I'm not saying that you should accept any yucky behavior. At the same time, don't blow off his 'bad days' as something he shouldn't be having. Even if you have smoked in your life (my husband has never smoked), quitting is different for every- one. Tracey In a previous article, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> said: >Support, support, support. I'm not saying that you should accept any >yucky behavior. At the same time, don't blow off his 'bad days' as >something he shouldn't be having. Even if you have smoked in your >life (my husband has never smoked), quitting is different for every- >one. I've read that it's harder to give up than heroin. And I know that it was months before I quit wanting a cigarette and years before it totally went away. And even now, when it's been many years, I can still remember the rush. I agree. It's going to take **much** longer than three days. I relapsed once 5 *years* after quitting. Vicki SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > In a previous article, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I've read that it's harder to give up than heroin. For me, the psychological part of smoking was my weak point. I didn't drive for two weeks after I had quit because, in my mind, in the car = smoking. I quit drinking coffee a week before the class started (we didn't actually quit smoking until the last day of class) so that the cup of coffee= smoking trap wasn't there for me. For me, lots of things triggers my urge to smoke. I'm kinda weird in that when I am in places that don't allow smoking, I'm fine. I don't think about smoking, I don't get jittery, I don't even get crabby. But the minute it's *possible* for me to smoke, I'm there lighting up. Has Mike set up a list of things to avoid or do differently so that he's not having to fight the urge so much? Some things were impossible for me to avoid. Eating, for example. :P Other things were, like driving. Tracey > Has Mike set up a list of things to avoid or do differently so > that he's not having to fight the urge so much? Some things were > impossible for me to avoid. Eating, for example. :P Other things > were, like driving. He's been avoiding the workroom (where he smoked) like the plague, and I'm going to suggest that instead of sitting around jittering after that morning cup or after dinner, he go out for a walk. He needs to lose the weight anyways, and the exercise gets him away from dirty diapers and me for a bit. :) We also got him enrolled in the VA yesterday, and he should know which clinic/copay level he's assigned to by Monday or so, so that gets him access to their smoking cessation program. Jess > In a previous article, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I agree. It's going to take **much** longer than three days. I > relapsed once 5 *years* after quitting. I was told that it takes roughly three days to flush out of your system, and that the first three days are the bitch-after the first three days, it's learning to replace the habit with something else. But he's determined this time to make it stick-he's been doing the huffing thing walking around the house, and he's started the smoker's cough. :/ Jess In a previous article, "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> said: >I was told that it takes roughly three days to flush out of your system, and >that the first three days are the bitch-after the first three days, it's >learning to replace the habit with something else. Could be, but he's *still* going to crave a cigarette after three days. Three days is really nothing. If that's all it were, lots more people would be successful quitting. I'm telling you, the gum *works*. >But he's determined this time to make it stick-he's been doing the huffing >thing walking around the house, and he's started the smoker's cough. :/ Determination is important. V SignaturePower may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks, it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it, and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton. > Could be, but he's *still* going to crave a cigarette after three > days. Three days is really nothing. If that's all it were, lots more > people would be successful quitting. I know-if three days were really all it took, he'd quit a year ago and I wouldn'tve been able to use it on Tim to get him outside after the truck accident. > I'm telling you, the gum *works*. "That sh.t's nasty" *sighs and bashes head* > Determination is important. Yup, and here's where I don't get to tell him to get a cig and get the hell out of my hair. :/ Jess >> Could be, but he's *still* going to crave a cigarette after three >> days. Three days is really nothing. If that's all it were, lots [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Yup, and here's where I don't get to tell him to get a cig and get > the hell out of my hair. :/ I'm telling you, get the tazer ... Signature~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! > I'm telling you, get the tazer ... I have a friend who has a cat 'o nine...... Jess >> I'm telling you, get the tazer ... > > I have a friend who has a cat 'o nine...... > > Jess That might work! ~~Geri~~ "HUSKERS!! F**k, yeah!" "When Nebraska goes to Pork Chop, we all have a great big barbecue! >> I'm telling you, get the tazer ... > > I have a friend who has a cat 'o nine...... > > Jess Has Mike read Allen Carr's book on stopping? Very useful. I mean, I read it months ago, while still smoking, but a lot of what he says has stuck with me and been useful in approaching quitting this time. Eg, he says never to think of it as 'giving up smoking' as that means that you are depriving yourself of something. In fact, all you're doing it gaining. Gaining health, wealth, freedom etc. 'Giving up' suggests that your life is improved by the smoking, which of course, it actually isn't. Nikki > Eg, he says never to think of it as 'giving up smoking' as that means that > you are depriving yourself of something. In fact, all you're doing it > gaining. Gaining health, wealth, freedom etc. 'Giving up' suggests that > your life is improved by the smoking, which of course, it actually isn't. I'll point that out to him. :) Jess > >> I'm telling you, get the tazer ... > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nikki I don't know...after many unsuccessful attempts to quit smoking, including using prescription patches (before they went over the counter), I was finally successful when I *did* put it in terms like that. I made it a definite point to say I had "Given up cigarettes", as opposed to "I'm trying to quit smoking". In fact, the difference was that I *was* quitting smoking, by virtue of the fact that I had as of a certain date, "given up cigarettes". It was the hardest thing I've ever done, in fact, for a while, I told myself over and over that I had "given them up" for the next five minutes, until I could up that to an hour, a day, a week, etc. It's been over 8 years now, and I will never go back. Lori And you know, it can be REALLY hard to quit if your depressed or something else is bothering you. When I was pregnant, I couldn't help but quit because the sight of a cigarette made me hurl. After I had my baby, I had absolutely no cravings and never had the urge to smoke for two years. When I moved to the isolation that is southern AR, however, I took it up again because I was just so freaking depressed and in hickville. I quit for another year using Wellbutrin, so that is a good thing to use, too (if it works for the person, some say it doens'nt work for them). But anyway, I don't really know what point I'm trying to make, just thinking out loud that it can really be hard to quit if you're going through a particularly stressful time in life. Heather > In a previous article, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Vicki > I quit for another year using Wellbutrin, so that is a good thing to use, > too (if it works for the person, some say it doens'nt work for them). But > anyway, I don't really know what point I'm trying to make, just thinking > out loud that it can really be hard to quit if you're going through a > particularly stressful time in life. He was put on Wellbutrin in NY, and he said it made him act like he had PMS all the time, but I think we've got the "stressful time" right now-she's sick and teething. I'm not having a good day. Jess > I've read that it's harder to give up than heroin. And I know that it > was months before I quit wanting a cigarette and years before it > totally went away. And even now, when it's been many years, I can > still remember the rush. I've gone years between bouts of smoking; it would be very easy for me to fall back into full-time smoking, so I stay far away. Signaturehttp://www.theocracywatch.org/ >OMG, I can so related to the big brother. The other day, I saw a copy of >*The Island of the Blue Dolphin* and I think that will be a good one to >read, too. > >~~Geri~~ My Side of the Mountain is a good one too. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart Oh weird I was just thinking about that book yesterday! He lives in a tree and eats turtle soup. In the Catskills. I am such a nerd... Heather > >OMG, I can so related to the big brother. The other day, I saw a copy of >>*The Island of the Blue Dolphin* and I think that will be a good one to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." > -Jon Stewart >and next on the agenda is *Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing*. > >~~Geri~~ SS loves those books. A new fudge book came out two years ago. "Double Fudge." We've read them all. Even SD got into reading them aloud as she remembered the books from when she was a kid. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart >Tell him to go rent whatever movie it was, and watch it. Then he'll have >something else to talk to the kid about. I frequently read books geared to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >rebecca SO used to read books to SS over the phone. They also made up stories together --long stories that would play out over two to three phone calls. That way SS could look forward to the next call to see where the story would go. Love, Melissa "Talking points: they're true because they're said alot." -Jon Stewart >SO used to read books to SS over the phone. They also made up stories together > --long stories that would play out over two to three phone calls. That way SS >could look forward to the next call to see where the story would go. >Love, >Melissa I used to do this with my son on the ride to daycare when he was little. We made up Johnny and Mikey stories. For whatever reason, he was absolutely enamored of the names Johnny and Mikey. I thought I'd lose my mind over them before he was done with that, and now he doesn't even remember them... That kind of thing *would* work well on the phone. Deb R. > > Are you telling me your political/judicial system is *that* corrupt? Yeah, > > I'm not really getting that. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > house back and I'll owe the remainder of the mortgage to the government. I > *really* dislike the thought of owing Uncle Sam over a hundred thousand I would recheck this information. I own some property and checked with my real estate person, who works with VA stuff all the time. Yes, if you disturb the loan, you will have to requalify, but you can rent out the house whenever you want--the VA could care less who is living in it. > dollars, especially when I've spent the past two years now (wow, two years) > cleaning up almost five grand in debt. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jess > I would recheck this information. I own some property and checked with > my real estate person, who works with VA stuff all the time. Yes, if > you disturb the loan, you will have to requalify, but you can rent out > the house whenever you want--the VA could care less who is living in > it. I have; if I rented it out, not only would I have to reclassify this as a rental property with the county, but then the VA would take the guaranty because the guaranty is on the *principal residence*, not a rental property. If I lose the guaranty, I lose the house because I sure as hell can't qualify for a mortgage on financial aid. Matter of fact, when you're qualifying for a VA guaranty, one of the lines you sign on is that you will be using the house/property as a primary residence and not for any other purpose. Jess This is the VA website from which I gt my information http://www.homeloans.va.gov/faqpreln.htm "I want to buy a house with a VA loan. Do I need to occupy the property? The law requires that you certify that you intend to occupy the property as your home. This requirement is considered satisfied if you actually intend to occupy the property as your home and in fact so Guess the VA is putting out bogus info on their website, huh? Dennis > > I would recheck this information. I own some property and checked with > > my real estate person, who works with VA stuff all the time. Yes, if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > because the guaranty is on the *principal residence*, not a rental property. > If I lose the guaranty, I lose the house because I sure as hell can't > qualify for a mortgage on financial aid. Matter of fact, when you're > qualifying for a VA guaranty, one of the lines you sign on is that you will > be using the house/property as a primary residence and not for any other > purpose. > > Jess > This is the VA website from which I gt my information > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > property as your home. This requirement is considered satisfied if you > actually intend to occupy the property as your home and in fact so The whole quote: The law requires that you certify that you intend to occupy the property as your home. This requirement is considered satisfied if you actually intend to occupy the property as your home and in fact so occupy it when the loan is closed or within a reasonable time afterward. So, you're saying that this is *actually* meaning that 'You don't actually have to live in it. If you just *say* you're going to live in it, we'll consider that as satisfying the requirement'? Tracey That's it. The VA website and my real estate agent are saying the same thing. Jess has lived in the house and can rent it out whenever she wants. I also haven't seen anything that says if she rented it out and the VA found out about it, they would take the house back AND make her pay for the house in addition to taking it back as a penalty for renting it out. I think she must have gotten bad information. Dennis > > This is the VA website from which I gt my information > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The law requires that you certify that you intend to occupy the property > as your home. This requirement is considered satisfied if you actually > intend to occupy the property as your home and in fact so occupy it when > the loan is closed or within a reasonable time afterward. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Tracey > That's it. The VA website and my real estate agent are saying the same > thing. Jess has lived in the house and can rent it out whenever she > wants. I also haven't seen anything that says if she rented it out and > the VA found out about it, they would take the house back AND make her > pay for the house in addition to taking it back as a penalty for > renting it out. I think she must have gotten bad information. Well, ya know, with my *house* on the line, I'm not exactly tempted to argue with them-I would most likely lose. Jess > This is the VA website from which I gt my information > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Guess the VA is putting out bogus info on their website, huh? Nope. That matches the information on the certification sheet we had to sign and submit to the VA, and it matches the information I got from the certification director out here. Jess |
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