Re: Interesting book on narcissism and effects on relationships

I liked that English (or rather, literature) lesson.   So thanks for that.

Although I still don't see them quite as upbeat as you seem to do (I mean
your interpretations of their viewpoints on life, even with some of those
"tokens" thrown in at the end of their novels, as though that represented
their true optimism in humanity).    There is too much darkness there to so
blatantly dismiss and wrap up conveniently at the end with a token,
methinks.    But it's also been awhile since I've read them too, but I'd
probably still see it the same way now.

On Jul 4, 10:22 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

IF you read ED's poems (and I urge everyone to do so), you will be
made breathless by her moments of grace and presence, and you will
experience them with her. Wild Nights comes to mind first, but may not
be the best example. Even Because I Could Not Stop for Death...

The Bronte sisters struggles are more prolonged, but too, you see that
they could also find peace and salvation. I'm thinking of Villette,
when Lucy comes out of her collapse or, more significantly, the final
chapter; of Tenant of Wildfell Hall, where Helen refuses the advances
of what'shisname Hargrave, knowing of something higher and better, and
even Wuthering Heights where Catherine says to Nellie, I am
Heathcliff, recognizing the one-ness of self and other.

Conrad, Heart of Darkness, Marlowe recognizes the connection with
Kurtz; Billy Budd (in Billy Budd) sees to higher planes regularly.

Dickens, Great Expectations, Pip's recognition of father-self at a
high plane of peace and salvation...

OK, English lesson over.

"....at times"???    (Kinda qualifying it just a wee bit here, n'est pas???

I thought she was pretty isolated and lonely, staying up in her room.
Maybe I'm misremembering or thinking of someone else.

And maybe Joseph Conrad?   or Charles Dickens?
As for those who actually "fell off" the cliff of life, I'd have to look
that up.

On Jul 4, 5:35 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Don't know about Maugham, guess would be no. But yes, I think Emily
and Emily and Charlotte and Anne *did* at times find it. Krishna knows
that they fell off repeatedly, but they did have those moments of
peace and salvation. (There's a great new book out on ED's
relationships with...oh shmuck, I forgot his name...too lazy to go
downstairs and find the book). Anyhow, it's in there poems and books,
thru their characters, tho as in eternal? Not falling off? Ever? No.

But did Somerset Maugham ever find that peace and salvation?    And did
Emily Dickinson or the Bronte sisters find it?

On Jul 3, 9:56 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Yup, and the book tells you you'll fall of the edge repeatedly, but
you can always keep trying to get back on and stay back on.

And that path to salvation is as difficult to walk ... as a razor's edge.
(by SM, with a few liberties taken, once again)

On Jul 3, 5:37 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Hmmmm, guys. Today, I put up my hammock (it strings between the
clothesline and the crabapple tree), and rocked in it and read some
parts of Eckhart Tolle's *The Power of Now*--which you all have
mentioned here before.

Tolle makes a compelling case for the narcissism that you speak of
above, but also recognizes that we can in fact go beyond it, tho few
of us try or do. Given my where-I'm-at-edness" I'll just quote this
brief part, from page 128:

"If you stop investing it with "selfness," the mind loses its
compulsive quality, which basically is the compulsion to judge, and so
to resist what *is*, which creates conflict, drama, and new pain. In
fact, the moment that judgment stops through accpetance of what *is*,
you are free of the mind. You have made room for love, for joy, for
peace."

It's a cool book--I read it before on the recommendation of someone
here--maybe Doug A?--and enjoyed re-reading it and listening to the
silence between the cardinal song, the car sounds, the firebombs,
etc........

Fill

Except perhaps, as one well-reknown philosopher once pointed out, the basic
absurdity of life.

Close enough. I wasn't making any judgements.

That said, how well does mmmousemaid get along with her husband?

Hmmm. I disagree. To me sometimes it's nature and sometimes it's
nurture
and one second nature wins over nurture and the next it's the other
way
round. What determines which happens when? I guess it has something
to do with The Dao.

O, and little incidentals like time and space... for instance, how
much of
a hurry am I in and how much of my time have other people wasted/saved
helps to determine my mood and how far away am I from where I wanted
to be? What a coincidence: that (space and time) about sums up the
material
world, doesn't it?

- Michaela

Read what she wrote.  Michaela wrote "The question for Michaela is..."  She
didn't make any statement about the question for _you_.

Hmm.  Maybe I think the opposite.  Everyone is born a narcissist, but
most people are socialized into tempering their narcissism.

Uhm, Michaela.... how do you know I don't get along with others?
I *do*.  And I am a very kind and compassionate person by their
feedback.  However, I agree with you that Robert Hare's (e.g.)  and
the above
classic are pop psychology.  Personality psychology is more
sociological
in observation; maybe close to anthropology though more specific.
Still, in some cases this book do describe habits of thinking that may
have orginated for a number of reasons -- developmental, upbringing,
culture,  or just ill will.  I don't think anybody is born a
narcissist.

Erin

Words like 'narcissism' remind me of the theme song of Weeds.

Seems to me that labels are only useful up to a point. And motives
for abuse of such labels may be hidden even to the labeler themselves.

I imagine we all have one/some/several/many/lots of narcissistic
tendencies
that do and don't manifest at different times.

If we look carefully we might begin to see a pattern emerge.

I think of it as 'separation'. When we feel separate from anyone or
manyone
else, we tend to do things that might be labeled narcissistic and when
we are
at one with everything around us we seem to flow happily along with
the rest
of the world.

The question for me is 'why don't I just try to get along with others
more often?'

- Michaela

Popular psychology:

http://samvak.tripod.com/archive20.html