Re: Loosen the Apron Strings - Alcohol

On Jul 10, 4:03 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Just go to JStor and type in "alcohol use" and children and they'll
pop up--I didn't write down any titles, etc. There were some
interesting studies on parents' positions about alcohol in relation to
under-age drinking, too, which more closely addresses the earlier
parts of this thread.

(snip)

Cool.  Tell me the articles - I can find them from where I am.

I certainly have seen reports on increased prevalance of binge
drinking, though these have always been journalistic and unencumbered
by evidence.

I've also seen suggestions that, as Vickie writes, the average age at
which girls start drinking has gone down.

On the narrower question of "is there more drinking at middle school
age" I haven't seen any research.

On Jul 10, 1:37 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I did a quick search on Jstor, and both psychological and sociological
articles suggest there has been a change: in the lower age when kids
start drinking, in the overall % of under-18 who do drink, and in the
prevalance of binge drinking. I can't link you to the articles as
they're thru the U-server--there may be another in, but I don't know
it.

I understand that you are saying this.  And I understand that you
believe it to be true.  But I really don't know that it is true.

Usually when we say "things are different" what we really mean is "the
behavior we hear about now isn't how we behaved back then."  But that can
mean lots of different things.

It can mean that "we" (whoever we are) were unusual back then, and
would be unusual now.  It can mean that the behavior we hear about now
is unusual now (only we don't hear that part) and it would have been
unusual then.

Or it could even mean that things have actually changed.  But for that
I'd like to know who has measured that change and how.

Perhaps, but this doesn't seem like a change.  (Do middle schools
really _have_ Student Council Presidents?)

Yes, quite likely.  But also not seeming like a change.

Lots of perhapses.

But as far as the answer to the question "Are there more middle
schoolers drinking now than, say, 30 years ago,"  perhapses don't
really do it for me.

Did anyone suggest it is lower than it used to be?  I don't think so.

Bill, and now you, have suggested it is higher than it used to be, but
no one is providing evidence for a change in any direction.

In a word:  girls.
Girls are very clique oriented and into acceptance of their peers.
Before it was the "bad girls", a small minority who partied and drank.
It is not a "bad girl" quality anymore.
So when Suzy Somebody who is President Student Council and voted most
friendliest is drinking at sleepovers, the other girls follow suit.
Girls are also very into impressing guys.  Perhaps before being sloshed was
not a quality boys looked for in girls.
(Sort of thinking along the lines of "Splender in the Grass" here.)
But now if they look more "grown up" with a drink in their hand to be most
popular among the boys, they'll do it.

Also I think it may not be just more kids drinking now-a-days, but how much
they consume.
They are not just sneaking out a bottle of beer, haha heehee, but sitting
round playing quarters with the bottles of the hard stuff.

Kids also, as Bill points out, have more time alone, which can cause
problems.  And with that, more money to spend on getting what they want.

I'm not sure what reasons could be given to conclude that alcohol among the
underage is lower than it used to be.

Vickie

Fair?  I don't know about fair.

My question is: would it be _true_ to say that?  I don't know enough
to answer that question, and no one else has offered anything that
addresses that question.

I think it is fair to say that alcohol among middle schoolers (at least) is
comparitively higher then it used to be!

Vickie

(snip)

Elementary school aged children becoming alcoholics is pretty much
unheard of now too.

And whether you ever heard of elementary school aged children drinking
alcohol or not,  several decades ago when I was 12 and 13, I had
friends who were experimenting with alcohol.
13 (and that was several decades ago).

I wasn't talking about the legal drinking age.   I was talking about the age
at which some children are beginning to drink alcohol *these days*.
Elementary age school age children drinking alcohol (or even becoming
alcoholics) was pretty much unheard of several decades ago.

Well, but you weren't around back then, and I was.   (And please don't just
say it wasn't "reported" back then, but it is now, and that's the only, or
even the main, difference).

I'm not comparing to 10 years ago.    I'm comparing it to 6 decades ago.

You call that "caring"??    That's not caring, that's avoiding
responsibility.   It's not just "they have the wrong idea".

On what do you base that assertion?

When did it fall and from what to what? Anywhere I look it has risen to 21.
Here in VT when I was a kid, the age was 18. Now it is 21.

(I think the drinking age is dumb too.)

Nothing really. It does not tell me anything abut how this is worse than it
used to be.

All of what I have heard is that teen pregnancy is DOWN. Except in red
staes, which just cracks me up.

I think you can say these parents have the wrong idea. But it is their
caring that has them thinking they are helping their children.

It's much more common today.   And the "drinking age" has fallen.   Heck,
even some elementary school age children are now into alcohol, or even
alcoholics themselves!    What does that tell you???    And THAT increasing
prevalence HAS been a recent societal change.  (ditto for the number of kids
born to unwed and/or teenage moms).    Viva La Progresso...

"Absentee parenting" means "there is no one home", in the broader sense -
NOT literally.   IOW, they are a bit "out to lunch" in the parenting dept.
Like giving in to their child's demands because it's just "too much work"
not to, or, they are just too clueless to even understand the
ramifications - OR both of the above.

Except it really isn't since it was prevalent when I was a teenaer as well.

How are they being absent? I think the idea is meritless. But the one thing
you can't accuse the parents of being, in thiss case, is absent.

"Bizarre" is an understatement.   But it's just a sign of the times.   It's
just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" who
themselves are irresponsible.

I think it is completely nuts. But it was happening even back when I was a
kid. All that happened was that whatever sanity we had around alcohol was
completely abandoned in favor of relying on the grown ups to keep us from
dying.

Me too.

I'm surprised.  I know people (including myself and my wife) who will
occasionally let our teenagers have a very small glass of wine with us
at dinner.  I would never do this for someone _else's_ teenager.

So to me sponsoring a party fo 16 year olds where it is _generally_
expected that these kids will be drinking sounds very strange.

The idea that there is a _junior_ high graduation party where drinking
is being tolerated by adults seems simply bizarre to me.

Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their
teenagers.

We (my wife and I) drink socially, but not much at all.  Maybe once a
month or so, if people are over.  We have allowed our 16 year old to
have a couple of drinks at special occasions (New Years Eve, etc.).  Our
thoughts are that she will probably drink at some point and we would
just as well she experience it first with our supervision.  Myself
personally and my wife, both starting drinking alcohol at age 16.  We
drank a lot more when we were younger.  My wife stays away from it,
because her father drank way too much.

Our first experience was when our oldest was in Grade 10 and barely 16.
  One of her hockey teammates (her coaches daughter) was turning 17 and
her parents were having a party for her.  The party was in their house
and the parents would be chaperoning.  The parents made sure we were
aware that there would be alcohol at the party.  In our jurisdiction it
is illegal to drink until age 18.  But apparently this happens quite a bit.

Our first instinct was to say she couldn't go.  Then that she could go,
but wasn't allowed to drink.  We ended up buying her two 'coolers' and
let her go to the party.  We dropped her off and picked her up.  I guess
we have set the precedent that our kids can drink once they are in Grade
10.  Thankfully, this daughter isn't all that social and hasn't asked to
do anything like this since.

We recently had a fight with our second daughter who is 14 and in Grade
9.  They have a small graduation ceremony (from Junior High) and our
daughter wanted to be able to go to a party where drinking would be
happening.  Supposedly, everyone was going to be there.  We held our
ground and told her it wasn't allowed until she was in Grade 10 and even
then only when supervised.

This daughter is very social and I have no doubt she will be asking to
go to parties all the time in grade ten (a couple of months away).

What to do?????