>>> Former and present foster children represent the most endangered >>> population in this country. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Actually, they find themselves where they are through a multitude of > variables unfolding throughout their entire life. Which adds nothing to my comment, but is diverting babble, Doug. ‘Spin’ as usual.
I said, which is sufficient for the understanding of the reader of normal intelligence who does not need your interpretation, “And they came by it in the majority from their origins, the family they were born into,” covering easily what you babbled on about to divert.
> To determine the "why" of > the exceedingly poor outcomes, one must measure the entirety of their life
> experiences, both before and during foster care. Then why has your and other’s emphasis, including The Casey Family Foundation analysis ignored the family of origin in favor of focusing only on the foster experience?
> The removal itself, for > young children, often causes irreparable harm. Riding in a car unbelted can cause irreparable harm. IF you have a wreck.
In foster care the risks of harm are far less than in the family of origin the child was removed from.
95% of all harm to children that are the subject of open CPS cases comes from OTHER than foster caregivers, and most from parents and family members. That’s pretty good odds for children in foster care, compared to being anywhere else.
My recent post from an Oregonian article quoted by an Oregon county sheriff’s office pointed out that around 50% of all children that come into foster care have such complex medical needs that they require a medical foster placement...which of course is NOT available from lack of funds.
If 50% have ‘complex medical needs’ then we can assume some of the remainder have SOME more than average medical needs.
>> And some do not. Some believe that adequately funding the system for lower >> caseloads WILL in fact move children through the system more rapidly to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The key is in spending what money they already receive more wisely and in
> ways that address the best interests of children, rather than the agency. Caseload size is directly tied to quality of casework Doug. You have argued it and quoted Casey and Pew to that effect as well as other sources favored by YOU. The feds know it, the states know it, and you know it, but now you wish to change your story.
Quality casework has now become, by the logic of the little propagandist, Doug, an “agency best interest” rather than a child’s best interest. Do I understand you correctly?
>>> And reform movements are underway in many states and, on >>> the federal level, to place less children into state custody and release [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I was not talking about children who were abused. I was. YOU have. We debated issues that included it. YOU pointed out re-abuse as a critical element in child protection casework quality, and lack of quality. Stop your lying and dodging, and twisting and turning and changing your story, Doug.
> The majority taken into > state custody were not. The same old misleading bullshit, Doug. The majority are returned when that is determined. There is a judicial hearing the determines placement. The children not returned are either abused, neglected, or at serious risk of harm.
> Since they were not abused in the first place, it > is impossible for them to be "re-abused." The logic appears correct. Problem is you base it upon a lie. I have repeatedly proven that you are wrong. You simply ignore my posts to that effect.
> I quoted, in another argument, the fact that substantiated families who > receive services are more likely to be re-substantiated than substantiated
> families that received no CPS services. Which would go to the opportunity to OBSERVE, not a claim that services CAUSE the re-abuse.
Families that are substantiated and receive no services are no longer clients. And CPS cannot march into their homes without a repeat allegation. CPS doesn’t control those.
>>> Currently, the vast majority of children removed from their families were >>> not abused. >> That is only true if you count raw numbers of removals...and ignore those >> that are returned in short order. > > The average stay in foster care is around 2.1 years -- down slightly from an
> average of 2 1/2 years in 2002. That is not, in my opinion, "in short > order." A very small percentage of children are returned within the time
> frame of an investigation. What most readers, if they are bothering to read, will miss is the use of ‘average’ and what that really means.
In the context of CPS, it means that the number that pulls the length of time upward is very large indeed compared to the number that returns quickly. And that large number are the most abused and at risk of re abuse. They stay in the system for a very long time.
And for more than just the reasons of abuse. Many of them are in fact receiving rehabilitative services. Those take time. I worked with that population. Most of the youth had been in and out of foster care for years, re-abused by their parents.
Normally for inpatient care, which they were, the length of stay was from 12 to 18 months. They were foster children. They usually came from a foster home, and they usually returned to a foster home, because their parents were incapacitated. Often by being confined. Themselves in treatment, or prison, or parental rights removed.
>>> 69,000 of children placed in foster care in 2003 were removed >>> from families CPS workers themselves unsubstantiated for risk of or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They are, in fact, the same thing, according to the federal folks that > compile the figures and pay for the research. However, "substantiated" does
> not mean abused or neglected, Excuse me? That’s MY LINE. The gambit is noted.
> but in the main "at risk" of abuse or neglect. Yes. You finally have told the truth. You are a good chess player, and I recognize a move to be exploited later when I see it. Gambit noted.
> The USDHHS provides the criteria for each category and the definitions to
> state CPS agencies, who organize their data under the criteria before > reporting. And, according to the study I posted here, they do NOT MEET THE FEDERAL CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING SUBSTANTIATED.
> Each of these state agencies follow state statutes that define > "substantiated" and "unsubstantiated" in the same way. No, they FAIL to follow it, just as the study pointed out. And YOU have argued yourself the assessment methods FAIL.
Hence the numbers are NOT based on true abuse, nor true neglect, nor true risk...though the last item is the one they are closest to meeting according to federal definition.
> If CPS workers are > operating under a different criteria, they are violating their state law. You have said so. I have said so. And the study I posted said so.
I told you NOT to continue to argue the obvious agreed upon issue, but to stick to the issue under discussion...how ACCURATE are the numbers. You continue to beat the horse we both killed long ago to deflect attention from what you cannot win – that the numbers do NOT reflect reality so your claims are NOT based on fact.
The major point you continually avoid is that UNSUBSTANTIATED undercounts the truth. The assessment tool is being used to determine the likelihood of services being effective, not the facts of abuse or neglect. A child can be abused, and still be unsubstantiated IF a worker assesses that the family’s circumstances will be more likely to support services being effective.
This WAS the finding of the study, and it stands today. This has not changed.
> "Substantiated" is an investigation disposition from the state CPS agency
> that the allegation of maltreatment or RISK of maltreatment was supported by
> state law or state policy. "Unsubstantiated" is a finding by the state CPS
> agency that there was not sufficient evidence under state law to conclude or
> SUSPECT that the child was maltreated or AT RISK of being maltreated. > http://tinyurl.com/g6on9 You post your ‘house-rules’ and I’ve posted the action at the table as it really happens.
People are not playing by the rules. You get to use that for propaganda purposes.
> It's pretty simple, really. The state has to have a way of communicating a
> finding of an investigation or assessment -- whether the allegations are > true or not. Children subject to substantiated dispositions are called > victims. Children subject to unsubstantiated findings are called > "nonvictims." In 2003, CPS removed 69,000 nonvictims from their homes after
> a child abuse investigation or assessment determined the allegations were
> unsubstantiated. Faulty logic. We call it “spin,” when done deliberately to deceive.
The “way of communicating” has been proven by research to NOT be matching the criteria of the USDHHS definitions.
Thus what children are “called” no longer can be proven to match what the facts are.
You have avoided again that in households where their has been a victim, there are likely sibs. The nature of the abuse or neglect can often be, and often is, that if that child victim is removed and the others are not, they too would be at risk of the same abuse the “target child” was subjected to. Hence they are removed, but by definition, not ‘victims.’
Do you think that is not a large number and that I make up this scenario?
I speak to workers about it. Who do you speak to, God?
> Here are the USDHHS definations: > > a.. Substantiated: A type of investigation disposition that concludes that
> the allegation of maltreatment or risk of maltreatment was supported or > founded by State law or State policy. House rules. Not field practice.
> a.. Unsubstantiated: A type of investigation disposition that determines > that there was not sufficient evidence under State law to conclude or > suspect that the child was maltreated or at risk of being maltreated. > http://tinyurl.com/g6on9 House rules. Not field practice. Just as I’ve said before, and provided the study to prove.
>> Substantiation is a service needs driven assessment label, not a legal >> definition of abuse. > > Nope. Substantiation is a legal, investigation disposition that concludes
> that the allegation of maltreatment or risk of maltreatment was supported
> evidence required by state law. You speak to the word, I to the actual field practice. House rules. Not field practice.
> In each state, these state statutes define > the thesholds of evidence but do NOT address service needs. The worker and their supervisor do that. They often find that real life and “house-rules” conflict to the endangerment of the child. They go with the safety of the child. Naturally.
> In fact, the majority of CPS services are forced upon unsubstantiated > families. And you want to argue that families that need services will come running, you and your buddies.
>>> These non-victims represent 30% of the foster care population. >> "Victim" and "substantiated" are not interchangeable terms, as you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They most certainly are interchangeable. A victim is a child subject to a
> substantiated disposition. Because of actual field practice, and I’ve proven this in prior argument with you, many times, they are NOT. A victim is a child that has been injured, or is at substantial risk of harm. A substantiated disposition can include NON VICTIMS from the same family that would be at risk.
> A nonvictim is a child subject to an > unsubstantiated disposition. In 2004, 77,000 non-victim children were > removed from families CPS unsubstantiated for maltreatment or risk of > maltreatment. Again with the spin. Siblings, returns from shelter hearings. They are counted as non-victims, are temporarily in foster care, so are counted as “removed,” even if for 48 hours.
> Take a look at the table below. You see quite clearly that the number of
> child victims is precisely the same as the number of children subject to > substantiated dispositions of investigations or assessments. Likewise, you
> will see that the number of "non-victim" children corresponds precisely to
> the number of children subject to unsubstantiated dispositions by state CPS
> workers. > http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm04/table6_4.htm And this supports what portion of your argument that I have not defeated before?
>> The concept of upfront services has two major stumbling blocks, closely >> related to each other. > > The CPS reform package being considered by Congress allows states to spend
> Title IV-E funding as they choose, rather than it being tied to foster care
> services. In other words, my dire commentary when we first met, that YOU agreed with, concerning the need to fund better educated and trained workers, preferably MSWs in child and family specialty, is about to be overcome by the states doing that.
They will have quality casework now, and children will be better protected and either not be in out of home placement or get up-front services that their parents will welcome with open arms.
Let’s see how one state views child welfare, shall we...from an editorial TODAY, in the Oregonian. See if you don’t hear echoes from my comments three years ago on the lack of will of society to do what is right – the failure by trusting political solutions to social problems:
http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1149294 347240370.xml&coll=7
You may have to go through a sign in routine. Search on “Oregonian” “Editorials” and click on “For many kids, Oregon is a state of neglect” each time you see it. You’ll get to this:
For many kids, Oregon is a state of neglect Oregon must confront the alcoholism, drug abuse and parental failures driving more children into foster care Monday, June 05, 2006 The Oregonian
T here is no barometer that better measures the health and safety of kids than the rise and fall in the number of children in foster care. In Oregon, the numbers show that far too many of its kids are caught in a tragic storm of alcohol, drugs, abuse and neglect.
The Oregonian's Bill Graves reports that the number of children entering foster care in Oregon has ballooned by 25 percent in just the past two years. For three years running now, more children have been taken from homes of violence or neglect and put in foster care in Oregon than went back to their families, turned 18 or otherwise left the state-supervised care.
Oregon is losing ground on kids, in spite of the best intentions of Oregon's top elected officials and all their rhetoric about putting kids first. Thousands of children in Oregon are less safe and more vulnerable to abuse today than they were even a few years ago. To balance the state budget, the Legislature has hacked away at drug and alcohol treatment, Healthy Start and other programs for children and families.
The Legislature even decided in 2003 that maintaining one of the nation's lowest beer taxes was a higher priority than finding more money for alcohol treatment. That year Oregon cut its drug and alcohol treatment programs by 18 percent to help balance the shrunken state budget.
Now two years later, state officials report that drug and alcohol abuse was a key factor in a sharp rise in child abuse and neglect cases in Oregon. Drug and alcohol abuse was involved in nearly half of the 11,255 substantiated cases of child abuse and neglect in fiscal year 2005, they say. Moreover, alcohol and illegal drugs, mostly methamphetamine, were factors in nearly every one of the 18 Oregon child deaths from abuse or neglect last year.
All those people now chattering about whether the meth epidemic is little more than media hype ought to visit with some of those abused and neglected kids carrying their few belongings into Oregon foster homes. In Jackson County, about six out of every 10 children placed in foster care are taken from their parents because of meth abuse in the family, according to Carin Niebuhr, director of the county's Commission on Children and Families. Meanwhile, a national report next week is expected to detail the strains that meth abuse has put on the entire nation's foster care system.
It is frustrating that so many Oregon leaders -- and the voters who put them in office -- still seem unable or unwilling to see the clear connections between such things as cuts in drug and alcohol treatment and increases in child abuse and neglect. When the Legislature debated the beer tax increase, most of the talk was about protecting the state's craft-brew industry and virtually none was about protecting children by funding alcohol treatment for their drunk and abusive parents.
Even now, as this state prepares to send back more than $1 billion in tax revenues to comply with its kicker law, and girds for a likely vote on a new state spending limit, all the noise is about taxes and schools and what's good or bad for business. While Oregonians holler for their kicker, they all but ignore the cries of thousands of abused children.
©2006 The Oregonian ...........
And Oregon residents are no different really than people anywhere in this country. Wallet first, social programs second. Or third. Or less.
> This means the state agencies will simply provide more of the > in-home services they currently provide and much less of the more expensive
> and often times abusive out of home services. You are naive beyond perception. Time and again you have put up arguments like this. And I have pointed out my very long history with observing and interacting with CPS. People who neglect and abuse their children do NOT step up for services. They WILL try to refuse them. They will, AS YOU YOURSELF HAVE POINTED OUT, pretend to comply and move on, and will have changed nothing.
You claimed that when services were FORCED that would be the outcome.
How do you, presuming you wish children to be safer and are NOT the child hating family hating fool I believe you to be, propose to get the very families that most need “services” to volunteer instead of be forced?
What will be the bait? Free meth?
>> Those who NEED the up front services do NOT present themselves for those >> services. Criminals, addicts/substance abusers, mentally ill. > > CPS comes to them. In other words, the very thing YOU have argued in the past with claims that forced services do not work.
> They will continue to come to them, as they have in the > past. The difference will be that CPS can now use federal Title IV-E social
> security funding to force parents to accept cheaper, in-home services rather
> than take the child into state custody. “Force?” FORCE!!!!???
Do you recall your arguments about the certain failure of forced rehabilitative services, Doug?
Did you know it is illegal to “spin” a car’s odometer backward?
R R R R R R...lucky you, it’s not illegal to spin your spin backwards.
And I have a surprise for you and your cronies, and the “experts” including political appointees you cite as your authority.
An injured child, a developmentally delayed child, an emotionally traumatized child, a child that cannot learn like others, cannot socialize safely, is NOT LESS EXPENSIVE TO HELP IN HOME THAN OUT OF HOME.
Now I have a new prediction....and you helped open my eyes to this high probability likelihood.
THIS IS GOING TO BE AN HORRIFIC BOONDOGGLE, should it come to pass, more terrible in cost to our treasury AND THE LIVES OF CHILDREN, and to their parents, than anything we’ve seen so far.
Yes, little man, it most certainly won’t be long now.
0:->
PS I've not seen you post this sloppily in some time. I hope things are well with you and you are not living with undue stress. Even your spelling, something I don't often concern myself with -- except jokingly -- has become so bad as to make me wonder.
You know I'm right, Doug, and it's getting to you. No one can sustain, unless they are pathological, a continuous string of dishonest claims without it effecting them. K
 Signature "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
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