Re: Observer's stupidity revisited 2006 was Re: outlawing pseudoephedrine

I have no reason to think so. Do you? If so would you be prepared to do
the research to prove it?

That's not news, Doug. Possibly to others here, but not to me.

Problem is people use meth, or abuse it, can also have psychiatric
disorders. Think about it.

Yes. And it doesn't take many to fill the few psychiatric beds found in
most larger hospital settings.

You confuse psychiatric hospital with hospitals that have a psych ward.

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3114.htm

Just a few of many points brought up by the professionals:

"Physical: Full physical and neurologic examination should be performed.
Initially assess patients for medical stability and then for level of
danger.

    * During physical examination, assess the patient for medical
complications of amphetamine abuse, including hyperthermia, dehydration,
renal failure, and cardiac complications.

    * During neurologic examination, assess the patient for neurologic
complications of amphetamine abuse, including subarachnoid and
intracranial hemorrhage, delirium, and seizures.

    * Mental-status examination should emphasize delusions,
hallucinations, suicide, homicide, orientation, insight and judgment,
and affect.

Causes:

    * Amphetamine intoxication, binge pattern use, and long-term exposure

    * Comorbid psychiatric disorders

    * Abuse of other substances such as alcohol, OTC sympathomimetics,
and illicit drugs

    * Dehydration

    * Fluoxetine (Prozac) - Increases CNS concentrations of amphetamine
and potentiates its effects

    * Increased risk for HIV infection and acquiring other sexually
transmitted diseases

          o In large metropolitan areas, gay men are at increased risk
of HIV infection because of their use of crystal methamphetamine, also
called Tina.

          o Crystal methamphetamine is commonly used in conjunction
with gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) and/or prescription drugs to treat
erectile dysfunction medications, which helps to reverse the impotence
crystal methamphetamines cause.

          o During euphoria, unsafe sexual activity is common, and
individuals have little awareness or concern about the risks of sexual
encounters."

And here's an interesting little piece out of South Africa, of all places.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060614022318578C733054

"Methamphetamine-induced psychosis is triggered by long-term abuse of
tik. Common symptoms include paranoid delusions and visual or auditory
hallucinations.

In the first half of 2003, only 4 percent of patients receiving
substance abuse treatment named tik as their drug of choice, according
to the Medical Research Council.

'Increase in psychotic patients'
In the latest study findings released by the MRC, the organisation's
figures show that more than half of patients in treatment - 53 percent -
report tik as the drug they primarily abuse. "

 [[[ tik = Methaphetamine ]]]

http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/Methamphetamine.pdf
The Methamphetamine Treatment Project in California found participants
had high levels of psychiatric symptoms, particularly depression and
attempted suicide, as well as anxiety and psychotic symptoms. They
reported high levels of problems controlling anger and violent behavior,
with a..."

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/publications/methintf/3.html
"When methamphetamine abusers do enter treatment, they encounter a
variety of physical and mental health issues, many related to the
biological effects of methamphetamine on the brain. Withdrawal symptoms,
lasting between 2 days and 2 weeks, include depression, fatigue,
anxiety, anergia, drug craving, and severe cognitive impairment. Also,
research shows that protracted brain dysfunction persists for months
after methamphetamine use stops. Other clinical issues include
continuing paranoia, hypersexuality, irritability, drug craving in
response to conditioned cues, and violence."

How I know the data is incorrect?

It's easy.

Compare logically the related data from other issues of meth use.

For instance, the figure on how many people are currently using.

Compare them to the number of meth labs busted in a recent year, and ask
yourself if even only ONE person ingested Meth made by those particular
cookers (very unlikely to have been caught the first time out) from ONE
completed cook, how it would compare to other figures about other issues
of meth.

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/swt_0704p30.htm

"The Drug Enforcement Agency reported breaking up more than 16,203
clandestine meth laboratories in 2002 and 2003 (National Clandestine
Laboratory Database)."

In fact you might find the rest of hte article interesting.

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/swt_0704p30.htm

Then there's something for our friends below;
http://www.tu.edu/user_files/10/26.html
"Despite these problems, a number of investigators made efforts to
assess the role of amphetamines in psychiatric hospitalizations.
Askevold (1959) reported that at least 2% of the patients admitted to a
Swedish hospital from 1947-1957 were there because of amphetamine abuse.
Richards et al (1985) found that 10.7% of 300 admissions to the Iowa
City VA Hospital Psychiatry Service admitted to use of CNS stimulants
within six months prior to admission with 2.7% of these subjects' urines
being positive for the psychostimulants, amphetamine or ephedrine.
Interestingly, 21% of the schizophrenic and antisocial personality
disorder admissions admitted using stimulants within six months prior to
admission versus only 8% of all the other non schizophrenic admissions
(Richards et al 1985). Thus, stimulant abuse can partially contribute to
schizophrenic readmissions."

I was just viewing, by the way, brain scans of alcohol induced dopamine
release compared to meth induced release.

Very interesting indeedy.

I found the following an interesting view of us from outside.

http://www.csam-asam.org/pdf/misc/Maxwell-methamphetamine.pdf
Preliminary evidence fromthe literature on neuropsychological
effects of methamphetamine use on neurotransmitters
and cognition suggests that methamphetamine
dependence may cause long-term neuronal damage in
humans, with concomitant deleterious effects on cognitive
processes such as memory and attention [40

]. Abusers
of methamphetamine have higher self-ratings of
depression and anxiety than controls and they differ
significantly in relative regional glucose metabolism:
lower in the anterior cingulate and insula and higher in
the lateral orbitofrontal area, middle and posterior cingulate,
amygdala, ventral striatum, and cerebellum. The
relationships between relative glucose metabolism in
limbic and paralimbic regions and self-reports of depression
and anxiety in methamphetamine abusers suggest
that these regions are involved in affective dysregulation
and may be an important target for therapeutic intervention
during early abstinence and withdrawal when mood
disturbances may complicate treatment [41

].
Methamphetamine abusers who remain abstinent for
9 months or longer show modest improvement in performance
on some tests of motor skill and memory and they
appear to recover from some of the drug’s damaging
effects on metabolism in the thalamus. However, drugrelated
deficits appear to persist longer in the striatum.
Persistent decreases in striatal metabolism in methamphetamine
abusers could reflect long-lasting changes in
dopamine cell activity and decreases in the nucleus
accumbens could account for the persistence of amotivation
and anhedonia in detoxified methamphetamine abusers.
The recovery of thalamic metabolism could reflect
adaptation responses to compensate for the dopamine
deficits, and the associated improvement in neuropsychological
performance further indicates its functional
significance [42
]."

Other information in this piece is even more frightening.

But do you care?

0:->

Hi, Kane,

..And around 0.3% of the US population is using meth now or within the last
30 days.

Yes, 5.3% of the US population tried Meth at least once in their lives.  But
is hardly the drug of choice.  Here is a breakdown from the source you
cited.

Tried at least once during lifetime:

Marijuana                  94,900,000 users     40.4% of total population
Cocaine                    33,000,000 users      14.4% of total population
Inhalants                   18,000,000 users        8.1% of total population
Methamphetamine     12,000,000 users         5.3% of total population
http://whitehousedrugpolicy.org/publications/factsht/drugdata/index.html

Your quote above covers any meth use during a lifetime (5.3% of the total
population).  But note that marijuana use in a lifetime involves 40.4% of
the total population over 12, cocaine 14.4%, and even inhalants were used by
more people nationally (8.1%) than methamphetamine.

According to the source you quote, "the good news is that, since 2001, meth
use has declined 25% among our teenagers."
http://www.dea.gov/pubs/pressrel/pr083005b.html

Your claim that "Meth is becoming the drug of choice over both heroin and
cocaine combined is absurd.  Use of cocaine along is three times that of
methamphetamine.  And increases among ER admissions involving drugs are
LOWEST for meth users.

Methamphetamine      17,696              13% increase over 1995
http://whitehousedrugpolicy.org/publications/factsht/methamph/index.html

Cocaine                  199,472                47% increase over 1995
http://whitehousedrugpolicy.org/publications/factsht/cocaine/index.html

Marijuana                119,472              164% increase over 1995
http://whitehousedrugpolicy.org/publications/factsht/marijuana/index.html

Did your psychiatric hospital win a grant to treat "meth related" psychosis?
Cases of methamphetamine induced psychosis almost always involve an acute
condition experienced while under the influence of the drug.  Cases where
addicts exhibit psychotic symptoms after withdrawal are exceedingly rare --  
although it does sometimes happen.  Nationwide, such cases represent less
than 1% of psychiatric hospital admissions.

....yet another attempt at minimizing the meth issue.....

How very sad.

No, you are very wrong, sir. It is rolling across the country and has
been for some time now.

http://www.dea.gov/pubs/pressrel/pr083005b.html

I thank you, observer, and cohort, for motivating me to give you and
others better information. In full from the DEA, 2005:

"Prepared Remarks of DEA Administrator Karen P. Tandy at Operation
WildFire Press Conference
August 30, 2005
Washington, D.C.

Over the past week, DEA agents and diversion investigators, state and
local law enforcement, and prosecutors undertook the first coordinated
nationwide methamphetamine enforcement sweep. We arrested and put out of
business 427 meth cooks, dealers, and transporters in 200 cities across
the nation, and specifically targeted meth cooks and repeat offenders
removing 120 of them out of our neighborhoods. And, behind all these
numbers….:

    *

      We saw -- and rescued -- meth’s youngest victims, like the
Missouri infant and 6 year old girl we pulled out of a bug-infested home
where meth was being cooked. The children had no beds to sleep in and no
food to eat – they didn’t even have electricity – but the guard dog out
front was well-cared for.
    *

      We saw a toxic meth lab set up in a hotel room in Minneapolis—a
hotel that is across the street from an elementary school.
    *

      We saw in Missouri a sophisticated biker gang running a meth lab
where three of the five manufacturers were repeat meth offenders. Their
operation was surrounded with hi-tech video surveillance equipment that
allowed them to detect any law enforcement a quarter of a mile away.
    *

      We saw a mailman in Michigan delivering more than letters—he
delivered meth to houses on his route and was a user himself.
    *

      We saw meth cooks operating in an assisted living home in
Pennsylvania. Two of the 90-year-old patients had to be hospitalized as
a result of exposure to the meth lab.

Those are just some of the examples of what we put an end to this past week.

True to this operation’s name, meth has spread like wildfire across the
United States. It has burned out communities, scorched childhoods, and
charred once happy and productive lives beyond recognition.

In addition to the arrests in Operation Wildfire, we closed down 56 meth
labs and seized 208 pounds of meth – that’s enough to give a hit of meth
to more than 284,000 people – roughly the population of Newark, New
Jersey. We also seized more than a quarter million dollars of drug money.

This focus on meth isn’t new to the DEA. Meth is America’s Own –
homemade, cheap and readily available – we are making progress but this
is going to be a long haul, which we have been fully committed to along
with our state and local partners.

Here in our neighborhoods, our courageous DEA agents are arresting meth
cooks and traffickers—5,500 of them in the past year.

    *

      We have prioritized and deployed DEA’s Mobile Enforcement Teams
to take down meth trafficking rings.
    *

      We are training our state and local partners to safely dismantle
these toxic, volatile meth labs -- 9,300 of them since 1998 -- and
arming each officer with $2,200 worth of equipment to raid meth labs.
    *

      Last year, DEA administered more than $18 million in funding for
more than 10,000 meth lab cleanups
    * Together, U.S. and Canadian law enforcement and U.S. Attorneys
drove most of the largest “super” meth labs out of America by arresting
and prosecuting those who were supplying the bulk chemicals needed to
manufacture pound quantities of meth.

As a result, 65% of meth now sold in America is manufactured by Mexican
trafficking organizations, and DEA is working with Mexican officials to
block that flow.

    *

      The Justice Department and DEA are providing meth training to
Mexico investigators and prosecutors.
    *

      DEA is attacking international meth cartels by denying them
necessary chemicals, profits, and trafficking routes; by seizing their
drugs and dismantling their U.S. distribution cells; and by working with
our international partners to target meth kingpins themselves.
    *

      A little over a week ago, we concluded Operation Three Hour Tour
where we targeted high-level Colombian and Mexican drug traffickers in
the U.S. We dismantled three major transportation cells and 27
distribution groups and seized 155 pounds of meth – enough to give a hit
of meth to more than 200,000 people.

On a related front -- in the U.S. and beyond our borders -- we’re
denying meth manufacturers—large and small—the necessary precursor
chemicals they need to make their poison, particularly pseudoephedrine.
In Operation Wildfire alone, we seized more than 400,000 tablets of
precursors as well as 336 pounds of pseudoephedrine powder — which would
produce more than 350,000 hits of meth.

    *

      Over the past 7 years, more than 2,000 pseudoephedrine-related
chemical registrations and applications have been denied, surrendered,
or withdrawn as a result of DEA investigations.
    *

      We’re taking this fight around the globe, because to win against
meth in places like St. Louis or Sacramento, we have to go to places
like Hong Kong—which is too often where meth cartels go for bulk
pseudoephedrine.
    *

      In one international operation, we worked with partners from Hong
Kong, Mexico, and Panama and prevented 68 million pseudoephedrine
tablets from reaching meth cartels, which could have produced more than
2 metric tons of meth.
    *

      To continue that kind of success, DEA is forging international
agreements -- between Mexico, Hong Kong and other countries -- to
jointly pre-screen pseudoephedrine shipments to ensure they are going to
legitimate Mexican companies for legitimate use and to stop those that
aren’t.

Finally, the American family room and classrooms are our most important
fronts.

    *

      Today, DEA launches “justthinktwice.com” a cutting-edge website
devoted to and designed by teenagers to give them the hard facts about
meth and other drugs in “teenspeak,” with graphic photos and personal
stories – about how meth will steal their future and their looks, and
take control of their life. This straight forward website is aimed at
stopping young people from going down the dark road of meth.
    *

      DEA’s Justthinktwice.com website is exclusively aimed at our
teenagers and young adults for good reason: according to a recent study,
nearly half of meth users began during high school.
    *

      The good news is that, since 2001, meth use has declined 25%
among our teenagers. DEA’s website will help continue that downward trend.
    *

      Tomorrow morning, Channel 1 will broadcast a demonstration of the
new DEA website in 12,000 middle and high schools, reaching 8 million
teenagers and 400,000 educators.

America has been scorched by the wildfire grip of meth. We cannot expect
a cure overnight. But, with this nationwide operation, we extinguished
some of those fires. And, DEA is fully committed to a sustained effort,
here and abroad, to beat meth back. Our country and its children deserve
nothing less. "

just as florida is known for its bizarre news

You were as routinely behind the times when you posted as observer as
you are now. Possibly you are even worse today.

"Oregon?" You think Oregon is the only place? Hell, they are working
right now in DC on a bill for nationwide limits.

a key ingredient in meth manufacture,

Geez you are stupid. Medications with pseudoephedrine can be bought
right NOW in any grocery store with a cold remedy section. My local
grocer is a friend of mine, and I do meth education for my area, and he
is ON the same panel as I. He reports regularly about people coming in
and trying to buy more than the limit from his locked cabinet requiring
ID to purchase. But there is NO perscription required.

Imagine if you are a stupid and ignorant about this as you are, how
ignorant and stupid you are about other issues.

Determinedly miss- and underinformed, observer as maggie marches on with
pronouncements and proclamations. sh.t man, you ARE stupid.

nationally, pharmaceutical

Yep, and you can buy the old cold remedies still with the
pseudoephedrine in them. You must identify yourself and they are no
longer on open shelves.

Not that what you are posting isn't a good thing, and not that it's not
coming about over time, but stop making a total fool of yourself. Your
POINT is pointless, given that the meth issue, even by YOUR words, is
obviously a very serious issue.

Or were you trying to help me get the word out, "maggie?"

the combination of state laws and

I have posted about six or seven times already that there are people
making money providing disposable kits for cooking a one shot batch of
meth ($3, 5K profits on per batch) out of the trunk of a car.

Where is this "methamphetamine epidemic elimination act" you are talking
about?

The "meth" problem, as was pointed out in the press release from the DEA
 has been moving, even prior to 2005, from labs to imports.

" As a result, 65% of meth now sold in America is manufactured by
Mexican trafficking organizations, and DEA is working with Mexican
officials to block that flow."

About 5% of the US population used meth at least once. The source I
cited yesterday, if anyone bothered to read it, showed that it is now
becoming the drug of choice over both cocaine and heroin combined.

And it's a popular youth drug, something neither were before...and I
mean YOUTH. Kid of 10 years old and up, have used.

"NPR : Federal Cuts May Hamper Efforts to Close Meth Labs in Tenn.
In 2004, Tennessee ranked second nationwide in the number of meth labs
seized. From member station WUOT in Knoxville, Matt Shafer Powell reports.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4674925

"Oregon," observer? "West coast," observer?

Then how did Tennesee manage the above, dummy?

How has Missouri become the hottest spot in the nation for Meth use?

[PDF] Methamphetamine Impact: Nationwide Statistics
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Meth making operations have been uncovered in all 50 states. 2.
Methamphetamine Lab Busts on the Rise. • In 2004, 17033 methamphetamine
labs were seized, ...
http://www.montanameth.org/documents/Fact%20Sheet_Meth%20Impact_US041906.PDF

17,003 Met lab busts in ALL 50 STATES in 2004, Drag-maggie?

It's down. Not that that matters much to the overall picture. Meth use
is down slightly, but we don't know, countrywide if that's real or just
an overwhelm of law enforcement and they aren't making as many busts.

The reason for the question? Because meth addicts presenting at rehab
HAVE GONE UP. UP. UP.

My tri-county are Psychiatric Hospital says they have nearly 8 times as
many meth related psychosis patients now than they did five years ago.
That kind of psychosis is a horror show for the victims. And for their
caretakers and therapists.

I think of it as fried brain.

And a terrible loss, and often these people are parents. The loss, of
course, is also to the children.

You given a fine demonstration again, observer, of just how stupid you are.

0:->

Ref:
KVOA News 4, Tucson, Arizona - Study shows methamphetamine #1 drug ...
Peter Busch Reports Study shows methamphetamine #1 drug problem
nationwide ... Before, meth was a problem only in the West and Midwest. ...
http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3559062 - 77k - Cached - Similar
pages

Hospitals Say Meth Cases Are Rising, and Hurt Care - New York Times
In July, the association reported that an overwhelming number of
sheriffs polled nationwide declared methamphetamine their No. 1 law
enforcement problem. ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/18/national/18drug.html?ex=1295240400&en=a6265bea
7279e80a&ei=5088&par...
- Similar pages

Indianz.Com > News > Meth blamed for increase in child abuse on ...
Meth is a nationwide problem but the drug, often manufactured in Mexico
but also produced in labs in reservations, ... Copyright © 2000-2006
Indianz.Com ...
http://indianz.com/News/2006/013012.asp - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

August 2005 - Pushing Back - ONDCP
Bullet, Bush Administration Announces Huge Nationwide Meth Bust ...
Putting the meth problem in a national perspective, ONDCP Director John
Walters said, ...
http://www.pushingback.com/archives/05aug.html - 75k - Cached - Similar
pages

Unified Judicial System
In 1998 rural areas nationwide reported 949 meth labs. ... One of the
ways the UJS is addressing the meth problem in South Dakota is by
implementing a pilot ...
http://www.sdjudicial.com/index.asp?title=2006&category=annual_report&nav=39
- 42k - Cached - Similar pages

MATR News: Burns plans to spread Montana Meth project nationwide ...
Burns plans to spread Montana Meth project nationwide - "Not Even Once".
February 17, 2006, View for printing. Sen. Conrad Burns introduced a
bill Thursday ...
http://www.matr.net/article-18212.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Tribes across nation confront horrors of meth
Despite such efforts, Native American officials nationwide report a
meth-induced ... The rest of America can't even deal with the Meth
problem it has do you ...
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special49/articles/0331indian-meth.html
- 77k - Cached - Similar pages

Nevada Appeal - Opinion
The meth epidemic is so serious in Carson City and vicinity that Mayor
Marv ... drug problem in a majority of communities nationwide," the Bee
warned. ...
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20051023/OPINION/110230056&SearchID=7324635539073
- 20k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] LISA MADIGAN
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
RSVP by September 20, 2006. New Developments in the Investigation and
Prosecution of ... nationwide. To help you address the meth problem in
your community, ...
http://www.ptb.state.il.us/pdf/methinvite0406d.pdf - Similar pages

with the notable exception of oklahoma, meth is mostly a west coast
phenomenon..........just as florida is known for its bizarre news
stories, oregon is known for its meth labs..........that may be why
oregon made pseudoephedrine, a key ingredient in meth manufacture,
available only by prescription...........nationally, pharmaceutical
giant pfizer reformulated a version of sudafed without pseudoephedrine
and chain stores began limiting sales of over the counter pills
containing pseudoephedrine..........the combination of state laws and
corporate willpower helped cut the number of meth labs, which can be
easily setup in motel rooms (never use the microwave) and rv's, found
in early 2006...........despite dozens of sponsors for the legislation,
there isn't enough of a meth problem nationally for a conservative
congress to make the proposed "methamphetamine epidemic elimination
act" the law of the land ...............

]:^< runs around her dog lot barking about the number of meth labs
found in oregon...............

The following is from my mail today, received per my request from Oregon
law enforcement, Sheriff's department of the state's most populous
county. The subject, Meth involvement of children. From a document on
Meth, not on children specifically. Quoting from the printed page:

Stats from The Oregonian; Sunday, April 24, 2005

Children in foster care in Oregon 6,824
Foster homes: 4,800
Foster children with health issues so complex they require medical
foster homes:2,394 (35% of all foster children have these complex
medical issues)
Medical foster homes: 179 (there is of course no way that 179
med.fost.homes can take 13 children a piece)
Medical foster homes needed: 1,197

So of course, CPS hypes the meth epidemic (with collusion by the mental
health profession, the drug treatment centers, the police, and the
media..all lying, of course 0;-> ) so as to raise more money for things
like medially fragile compromised children (often from substance abuse
issues) instead of just letting them die, like Greg wishes.

You on that boat, observer?

Sailing soon, are you?

Funny, the cops say, in this same document, that METH IS THE LEADING
CAUSE OF CHILDREN NEEDING FOSTER CARE IN OREGON.

Obviously they are lying to raise fund, right guys?

Oregon Stats -- labs seized by LE
2003: 473
2004: 444

Isn't that nice to see such a significant drop?

In 2005 they halved the labs. Things are really improving.

Opps!

Seems meth USE did not go down. In fact, it went up. How COULD that be.
Well I don't know about Oregon, but MY county sheriff tells me it's
Mexican superlab smuggled meth using the same systems in place that were
laid down for Heroin and Cocaine.

Wouldn't you know, just when we thought we were getting a handle on it
and you guys could crow that my "epidemic" fizzled out. Poor boys.

There's much more that I'd share with you, but obviously you are bored
and have your own "truth" fed to you by Doug and your own simple
fundamentalist bounded brain and thinking patterns.

Heck I wouldn't want to make you boys uncomfortable or anything.

Forget about the kids of the folks doing meth. They don't really matter,
and CPS just picks them up from their poor families to make money off
of. Well, except for the one's hauled in by cops after a drug raid.

I still can't explain to myself how CPS arranged that, but according to
you guys, who I trust implicitly, they must have. After all, they are
just in it for the money.

0:->

the more you post, the more you sound like the old drunk joe mccarthy
ranting about a communist under every bed................

]:^< runs around her dog lot barking about abusive
parents................

And they came by it in the majority from their origins, the family they
were born into.

Some do.

And some do not. Some believe that adequately funding the system for
lower caseloads WILL in fact move children through the system more
rapidly to permanency. Better funding will result in not just lower
caseloads...a problem pointed out BY EXPERTS even you have quoted, Doug,
but allow for hiring and training more qualified workers.

Which has NOT proven yet to be the safest course. Parents have been
known, as you know perfectly well, to re-abuse these same children. YOU
quoted, in another argument, figures showing high rates of re-offending.

That is only true if you count raw numbers of removals...and ignore
those that are returned in short order.

When you claim "not abused" you are ignoring the research I posted here
that shows that "not abuse" and "unsubstantiated for abuse or neglect"
are not the same thing, nor the same yardstick.

Substantiation is a service needs driven assessment label, not a legal
definition of abuse.

"Victim" and "substantiated" are not interchangeable terms, as you
delusional claim. The study I provided you done for the USDHHS shows
clearly that you are not correct, and your insistence on ignoring it is
what earns you the title I give you of liar.

Yes?  0:->

Nonsense babbling again, Doug?

R R R R, volume does not equate with accuracy or expertise, Doug. Wade
Horn is identified as an anti-women's rights appointee to a political
office.

Wade makes the same mistake I've pointed out to you repeatedly and you
have ignored or minimized.

The concept of upfront services has two major stumbling blocks, closely
related to each other.

Those who NEED the up front services do NOT present themselves for those
services. Criminals, addicts/substance abusers, mentally ill.

And especially those guilty of abusing, or placing their children at
risk. They are NOT your self development conscious population that self
assess as needing help and seeking it.

Which brings me to point to, and something that this administration is
becoming a major concern of the public over: if up front services are to
be delivered they will have to be delivered by heavy intrusive efforts.

These take the disguise of "public services agents" calling up people to
"volunteer" the services, but always with the hint and occasionally the
open threat of action if the "services" are not "volunteered for."

You and others here like you have even argued this very same thing
yourself in the context of the current system.

I suggest you carefully read Wade's statements from last year, for this
very content. Nicely worded, not at all obvious, but to one that has
followed CPS and related agencies, and the paths that legislation has
taken, it is more than clear. It is moving the point of entry of
government, not removing it.

And it will have similar outcomes. Those that cannot or will not present
themselves will be on a list. And the very thing YOU pissants claim is
being done, that is not, WILL BE A FACT OF LIFE: That CPS will be
charged with HUNTING child abuse, rather than taking incoming calls only.

The agency may not BE CPS, but other agencies will apply for grants,
hire new workers, and out they will go into the field. "Nurses,"
"community service Workers," from fields as diverse as health, and
recreation (Recreation is a favorite place to focus on children and
their parents and signs of abuse when government wants to intrude on
families.)

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/olab/legislative/testimony/2004/cw_testimony.htm
Then read:
http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/olab/legislative/testimony/2005/test_060905_chi
ld.html

And you will see the trend.

As for Wade himself, and the politics surrounding him, (and don't EVEN
try your bullshit of attempting to separate the quality and content of
someone's claims from their character and milieu with me, a.shole), you
might want to look at the criticisms:

http://www.mediatransparency.org/personprofile.php?personID=89

The politics are, well, business as usual.

YOU just want the money to move from one place to another.

Do you have a personal interest in this, Doug? A financial one?

It isn't an industry. No profits accrue to anyone.

You are lying. And YOU have applauded the use of GALS, and social
workers. A case manager is a case worker. Stop your lying.

There are no partridges, other than computer support, clerical support,
utility fees, building rents, transport for children, and often parent
clients, etc., and as far as I know, "no pear trees and the trees in
which they roost."

Trees resting in trees, Doug?

You obviously aren't paying attention to what YOU are writing, and you
most certainly ARE patronizingly playing on your belief in the ignorance
and or stupidity of the readers.

Who, hopefully really AREN'T as stupid as you patronizingly make them
out to be with your nonsense.

Bio families do not have the expenses related to abused children, unless
they abuse and neglect and are responsible enough to pay themselves for
the outcomes.

We can presume the $14,000 per child figure is not for that population.

You are ignoring, and thus misleading (called "lying" in some circles)
the rest of what the Pew commission found. And what others have found.

The abuse and neglect has taken on a much more perverse color than in
the past, with far greater injury with more serious outcomes that cost a
great deal more to treat. Number ARE going up, NOT down.

A simplistic way of describing something that is more comprehensive than
just the poverty level.

However, the poor neglect and abuse their children at a higher rate than
 the non-poor. It's just a simple fact. Nothing complex. They are often
poor for reasons that are not just lack of ability to find a job.

People that don't abuse, and become poor, do not start abusing because
they are poor. People that live lifestyles that include abusive child
rearing and are poor do not stop abusing even if you provide them money.

This has all been tried before and failed.

Appeals to emotions with loaded word choice, like 'pull down' leading
one to believe that they are 'making money' by this process.

They are spending money at a faster rate than they are getting it
because of the load on the system.

As for the TRUE reaction to PEW commission report, you need to go beyond
your bullshit propaganda, Doug.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=63622

[[[ Notice they are saying the same thing I am saying. Funding has been
a perpetual problem .. in all areas of child protection, including the
courts. They too have been underfunded, badly. ]]]

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Strengthening Courts, Improving Foster Care: A Progress Report from the
Pew Commission on Children in Foster Care

4/5/2006 2:53:00 PM

To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor

Contact: The Pew Commission on Children in Foster Care, 202-687-0948;
Web: http://www.pewfostercare.org

News Advisory:

-- Strengthening Courts, Improving Foster Care: A Progress Report from
the Pew Commission on Children in Foster Care

-- Thursday, April 6, 10 a.m. to 11:30 a.m., U.S. Capitol Building, Room
H-137, Washington, D.C.

No child enters or leaves foster care without a judge's approval. Given
the critical role of juvenile and family courts in children's lives, the
nonpartisan Pew Commission on Children in Foster Care called for
sweeping court reforms to protect children in foster care and secure
safe, permanent families for them.

The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 includes new provisions to improve the
juvenile and family courts that reflect some of the Pew Commission's
recommendations. These new court improvements will help courts track and
analyze their caseloads to improve outcomes for children in foster care,
allow judges and other court personnel to receive needed training, and
encourage collaboration between courts and child welfare agencies. The
DRA provides $100 million over five years for these court improvements.

These new court provisions add critical momentum to the efforts of
states to improve their child welfare and court systems. At this
briefing, members of the Pew Commission, Congressional leaders, judges,
court leaders and federal officials will explore the potential impact of
these court improvements on children in foster care throughout the
United States. Participants include:

THE HONORABLE BILL FRENZEL, Chairman, Pew Commission on Children in
Foster Care, Guest Scholar, Economic Studies, The Brookings Institution

THE HONORABLE WALLY HERGER (R-CA), Chairman, Subcommittee on Human
Resources of the Committee on Ways and Means

THE HONORABLE WADE HORN, Assistant Secretary for Children and Families,
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

THE HONORABLE JOAN OHL, Commissioner, Administration on Children, Youth
and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

THE HONORABLE LEE F. SATTERFIELD, Associate Judge, Superior Court of the
District of Columbia, Former Presiding Judge, D.C. Family Court

WILLIAM C. VICKREY, Member, Pew Commission on Children in Foster Care,
Administrative Director of the Courts, California Administrative Office
of the Courts

CLARICE DIBBLE WALKER, Member, Pew Commission on Children in Foster
Care, Former Commissioner, D.C. Social Services

http://www.usnewswire.com/

-0-

/© 2006 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/

It will defund, which will, of course, dump kids OUT of the foster
system, or close the doors to them when they need protection. The
pendulum will swing again.

The size of the needed workforce will increase to "give" those upfront
services that Wade is so supportive of. More AGENTS of the government
will make attempts at entre' to homes and family.

YOU, and they, are stupid.

Bullshit. CPS has little to do with the reporting on meth. The news
services are sending journalist and reporters out to find out for
themselves and they are finding that indeed there IS such an epidemic
and it's have devastating impact on families and children.

You are a propagandist, and it appears you are one for the current
administration on these matters.

It will be about two to three years before we see the first signs of
this boondoggle.

Watch.

Just as I predicted the upsurge in meth related issues for child
protection and the country I predict that child abuse rates, once we
change administrations, will be correctly reported and they will skyrocket.

Families will not present themselves for "up front services" and we'll
see more and more clever "agencies" with specially trained, expensive,
workers going out to find ways into homes.

Having done so more abuse will be uncovered than ever before...because
our system and society has resisted intrusion into the family...and that
will break down.

That IS the goal of certain factions now influencing legislation, and
they are poised to do those intrusion under color of law.

They are NOT family friendly...just "family model" friendly, and the
objective is to NOT allow for non-biblical model families to exist.

You will see the gates to hell open on this one, Doug. If they carry it
off. 5 years at the outside before the public discovers they have been
conned by you and your kind.

0:->

And for those that care, another opinion on Wade and his politics and
values, which of course boils down to biases:

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=5474

Hi, maggie,

Former and present foster children represent the most endangered population
in this country.

Child welfare experts contend that the only way to reduce the abuse in
foster care and the very poor outcomes for former foster children is to have
less foster care.  And reform movements are underway in many states and, on
the federal level, to place less children into state custody and release
foster children to their families earlier.

Currently, the vast majority of children removed from their families were
not abused.  69,000 of children placed in foster care in 2003 were removed
from families CPS workers themselves unsubstantiated for risk of or actual
neglect/abuse.  These non-victims represent 30% of the foster care
population.  The majority of those who were substantiated were found to be
at risk of neglect or neglected.  Of those children substantiated as victims
of abuse, the majority were substantiated because they were "at risk" of
abuse, not actually abused.

............. like welfare, foster care

The most vocal of foster care critics are professionals who are directly
involved with it.  Dr. Horn is one of the players in CPS reform efforts.

."there are no provisions for treatment, prevention,

The total cost of raising the child takes up about $14,000 of that.  Foster
children's medical, dental and mental health needs are covered by Medacaid.
The remaining $26,000 goes to principals and workers in the child welfare
industry itself.  Administrative costs are many times much higher than 2/3
of the funding going into foster care, although 66% is the general rule.
For each foster child, there is a battery of GALS, social service workers,
state caregivers, case managers, mentors, partridges, pear trees and the
trees in which they roost.

....................beyond abc's findings, the per annum cost per

....And pay for their college.

The overcrowded and abusive foster care system described by ABC news became
that way because of what the Pew Commission calls "the perverse funding
incentive" provided state CPS agencies to remove children from their
families.  Federal Title IV-E Social Security Funding currently flows to the
states on the basis of how many poor children CPS takes into custody.  As
long as the child stays in foster care, the state agencies pull down the
uncapped, on demand Title IV-E funding.

As the result of the Pew Commission report, Congress is currently at work to
remove the strings to Title IV-E funding.  The money will become a capped
entitlement to the states, allowing CPS agencies to decide for themselves
how to spend the money. This will cut the foster population by as much as
80% across the country.

The reform legislation, partially because of Dr. Wade's support, will soon
be passed by Congress.  This is the reform legislation the Organization of
American Counties and CPS attempted to defeat through a lobbying campaign
about the Meth "epidemic."

Meanwhile, individual states have reduced their foster care poplulation by
applying for and being granted exclusions from Title IV-E funding
restrictions.  California, Iowa and other states were just granted Title
IV-E waivers.  We can expect the state that harbors close to half of the
nation's foster children to reduce the population of state wards by 50% over
the next three years.  Mamouth reductions in foster care populations have
occurred in Illinois, Oregon and other states granted Title IV-E waivers in
the past.

It won't be long, now.

abc's primetime did a june 1 story on "the crisis of the foster care
system"..............among abc's conclusions were 52 percent of foster
children suffered from post-traumatic stress (a rate twice as high as
soldiers returning from war).............thirty percent of the homeless
have been in foster care............ twenty-five percent of those in
prison are foster care alumnus............. like welfare, foster care
is intergenerational (children growing up in foster care can become
mothers with children in foster care........... "the highest ranking
federal official in charge of foster care, wade horn of the department
of health and human services, is a former child psychologist who says
the foster care system is a giant mess and should just be blown
up"............."there are no provisions for treatment, prevention,
family support, or aging out - just for supporting things as they
are"..........that status quo costs taxpayers $22 billion a year and
works out to $40,000 a year to keep a child in foster
care....................beyond abc's findings, the per annum cost per
child in foster care would keep a child in a good boarding
school............