Re: teenage killers on prescription drugs

You don't cite it.

That's nice. To what do I owe then the honor of your many posts to only
myself?

Really? I hope you aren't about to try and prove it has little or no
effect.

Is not speculative? True, but then FAS and FAE aren't "speculative"
"highly" or otherwise.

Your determined ignorance marks you, by the way, as both observer and
opinions.

Or possibly you are identical triplets. Say hello to your mother for me
and tell her I'll send her the $2 if she'll prove you are all three mine.

And OOM sits on his fat a.s claiming he does research but offering no
proof, and lot's of babbling non-fact superstitious nonsense, even about
the US Constitution.

0:->

i do research..............i don't brag about it............you are
someone i feel no need to impress.............fetal alcohol syndrome is
highly speculative...........a history of mind-altering ritalin and
prozac prescriptions is not.............

]:^< runs around her dog lot barking about doing research..............

Everyone does. Few understand it's valid therapeutic uses.

You and Greg most obviously.

Can't speak to Eric Harris' case, but Kip Kinkle was diagnosis with
physiological symptoms...that is brain disorders. One look at his face
by a practitioner would dx him as mentally limited. In fact he had some
characteristics of FAS.

Current policy on education of special needs children kept him in
school, where he should not have been. Too much pressure in highschool
for a child with him psychiatric problems.

The mistake with Kip was not in medication, but in his father allowing
him to have firearms. He was both underage (illegal) and mentally ill
(also illegal). His parents broke the law, in fact.

His parents mistakenly thought guns were something he could focus on.
The fact was his behaviors we're out of control long before he was
medically treated. He was aggressive and dangerous.

He was not on Ritalin but methylphenidate and Prozac.

Unfortunately a psychologist failed to Dx Kip earlier in his illness
correctly. I do believe that Prozac was not appropriate for Kip, but I'm
not a physician so I have to leave that mistake to them to sort out and
take responsibility for or not. Here is what another found, and despite
this Kip abandoned his attempts to claim insanity -- which of course is
insane given this:

"Another psychologist who testified for the defense was Dr. Orin Bolstad
who works with juvenile killers in the Oregon penal system. After Kip's
arrest, he met with him for over 32 hours. In addition to interviewing
Kip and performing a battery of psychological tests, Bolstad examined
school and medical records, reports from other psychiatrists and
psychologists, Kip's writings and other evidence.

In his testimony, which lasted almost four hours, Bolstad said that it
was clear to him that Kip suffered from a psychotic disorder with major
paranoid symptoms, potentially some form of early onset schizophrenia.

Many of Bolstad's tests indicated that Kip had a major learning
disorder, manifested by difficulty spelling and writing. Other tests,
Bolstad said, revealed a very depressed, alienated child who sees adults
as unfair, arbitrary and untrustworthy. He has very low self esteem, and
is manipulative and paranoid.

Bolstad described a number of delusional beliefs that Kip related to
him: his fear that the Chinese were going to invade America (Kip stored
explosives under his house in order to be prepared); that Disney was
taking over the world--the Disney dollar, with Mickey Mouse on the
front, would replace the American dollar; that there were chips planted
in his head by the government.

Much of Bolstad's testimony detailed Kip's reported auditory
hallucinations. They began, according to Kip, in 6th grade. Kip told him
that he remembered the first time he heard a voice; it said, "You are a
stupid piece of sh.t. You aren't worth anything." They scared and upset
him, he said, and he tried various things to quiet them: biking,
watching TV, punching his head. According to Bolstad, Kip said that he
never told anyone about the voices because he was embarrassed. He didn't
want anyone, especially girls, to think he was crazy. Bolstad also
related his discussion with Kip about an incident in 1998 when he had
disrupted English class by shouting, "God damn this voice inside my
head!" This is the only time before the shootings that any mention of
voices was recorded.'

But you two amateurs babble on. It makes the case for balance, something
you lack.

Kip needed what his parents couldn't face, institutionalization and a
safe structured regimen of supervision, therapy, and medication under
supervised control.

I've never looked closely at the two boys in the Columbine incident. Not
much is known really. The families have managed to pretty well hide the
circumstances leading up to the incident.

No one knows exactly what went on in their households. With Kip it is
different. Much was revealed.

Before you babble next time, do a little research.

Properly administured and supervised use of Rx for psychiatric
conditions is useful and warranted. My beef is with misuse. And I've
spoken out on it, as you ignore from my posted comments. In other words
posting comments that would lead people to believe something I have not
supported, observer, is lying. Why would you lie?

At times I think maybe you don't like me.

0;->  R R R  R RR

eric harris, lead gunman in the columbine shootings, had therapeutic
doses of luvox in his system.........he had also taken zoloft until he
reported being homicidal/suicidal............kip kinkle, the
springfield, oregon murderer, had taken ritalin and
prozac................kinkle reported hearing "goddamn voices" in his
head..............

gregory understands the dangers of ritalin..................

Kane:
Did you ever speak out about how the
system was hooking kids on RITALEN
and similar psychotropics?

Wasn't THAT more truly an epidemic?

Some states stopped it.

Some have not yet stopped it and
the Ritalin insanity still goes on!

What percentage of foster kids are put on Ritalen?

Look it up.

Non sequitur

You don't know, can't prove it, but you sure can babble.

I don't know. Depends on how many boyfriends with a sex offender
registry requirement are living in or visiting the household. That's one
 of the most common reasons for "at risk," offenders of various kinds
that can and do present danger to children.

Their parents, of course, should be horsewhipped for allowing such
dangerous thugs to hang about, but what can you do, with in fact the
hanging about has to do with sharing drugs, selling drugs, and even
making drugs.

Why would an "at risk" child have to have had actual injuries to be at
risk? And who says they do not have or have had such injuries in the past?

In the ongoing attempt to rationalize and deny your own culpability in
Lisa and her daughter's case with the state of Iowa, by focusing on all
the stupid insinuating questions to vilify the state, yes, I'd had to
say "vicious questions" would be one of the more fitting labels for your
questions, Greg.

Why don't you answer your questions to prove they have merit and are
based on events and conditions?

You find a tiny percentage of anecdotal events that you repeat over and
over again attempting to discredit a massive total number of agencies
and people that work for them.

That's not proof of anything but that one or two people were corrupt or
inadequate to their tasks.

0:->

Of the removed children, what percentage
have been proven to have suffered blood,
broken bones or sexual abuse?

Certainly not the 40% portion the states
admit have been removed for NO REASON..

Certainly not the NEGLECT portion...

How big is the "AT RISK OF" portion?

And how many have had actual injuries?

These are vicious questions, no doubt.

the real drug epidemic in the united states isn't meth..............it
comes from abuse of alcohol, use of tobacco, and popping prescription
medications like candy.................

Hi, maggie,

Former and present foster children represent the most endangered population
in this country.

Child welfare experts contend that the only way to reduce the abuse in
foster care and the very poor outcomes for former foster children is to have
less foster care.  And reform movements are underway in many states and, on
the federal level, to place less children into state custody and release
foster children to their families earlier.

Currently, the vast majority of children removed from their families were
not abused.  69,000 of children placed in foster care in 2003 were removed
from families CPS workers themselves unsubstantiated for risk of or actual
neglect/abuse.  These non-victims represent 30% of the foster care
population.  The majority of those who were substantiated were found to be
at risk of neglect or neglected.  Of those children substantiated as victims
of abuse, the majority were substantiated because they were "at risk" of
abuse, not actually abused.

............. like welfare, foster care

The most vocal of foster care critics are professionals who are directly
involved with it.  Dr. Horn is one of the players in CPS reform efforts.

."there are no provisions for treatment, prevention,

The total cost of raising the child takes up about $14,000 of that.  Foster
children's medical, dental and mental health needs are covered by Medacaid.
The remaining $26,000 goes to principals and workers in the child welfare
industry itself.  Administrative costs are many times much higher than 2/3
of the funding going into foster care, although 66% is the general rule.
For each foster child, there is a battery of GALS, social service workers,
state caregivers, case managers, mentors, partridges, pear trees and the
trees in which they roost.

....................beyond abc's findings, the per annum cost per

....And pay for their college.

The overcrowded and abusive foster care system described by ABC news became
that way because of what the Pew Commission calls "the perverse funding
incentive" provided state CPS agencies to remove children from their
families.  Federal Title IV-E Social Security Funding currently flows to the
states on the basis of how many poor children CPS takes into custody.  As
long as the child stays in foster care, the state agencies pull down the
uncapped, on demand Title IV-E funding.

As the result of the Pew Commission report, Congress is currently at work to
remove the strings to Title IV-E funding.  The money will become a capped
entitlement to the states, allowing CPS agencies to decide for themselves
how to spend the money. This will cut the foster population by as much as
80% across the country.

The reform legislation, partially because of Dr. Wade's support, will soon
be passed by Congress.  This is the reform legislation the Organization of
American Counties and CPS attempted to defeat through a lobbying campaign
about the Meth "epidemic."

Meanwhile, individual states have reduced their foster care poplulation by
applying for and being granted exclusions from Title IV-E funding
restrictions.  California, Iowa and other states were just granted Title
IV-E waivers.  We can expect the state that harbors close to half of the
nation's foster children to reduce the population of state wards by 50% over
the next three years.  Mamouth reductions in foster care populations have
occurred in Illinois, Oregon and other states granted Title IV-E waivers in
the past.

It won't be long, now.

abc's primetime did a june 1 story on "the crisis of the foster care
system"..............among abc's conclusions were 52 percent of foster
children suffered from post-traumatic stress (a rate twice as high as
soldiers returning from war).............thirty percent of the homeless
have been in foster care............ twenty-five percent of those in
prison are foster care alumnus............. like welfare, foster care
is intergenerational (children growing up in foster care can become
mothers with children in foster care........... "the highest ranking
federal official in charge of foster care, wade horn of the department
of health and human services, is a former child psychologist who says
the foster care system is a giant mess and should just be blown
up"............."there are no provisions for treatment, prevention,
family support, or aging out - just for supporting things as they
are"..........that status quo costs taxpayers $22 billion a year and
works out to $40,000 a year to keep a child in foster
care....................beyond abc's findings, the per annum cost per
child in foster care would keep a child in a good boarding
school............